Brits also are much more okay with embracing the idea that there are separate classes. Americans like to think we are better than that and (like to imagine that we) treat all people in some idealized egalitarian fashion. In practice, it is a lot, lot harder to treat everyone equally well and try to ignore class divides than to have protocols in place for bridging the gap between people explicitly of different classes.
It's entertaining how far we in the states go in denying we have classes. Some years back a blogger tried to cook up a taxonomy of our class system. Since we don't have words to describe them he adopted archaic Indian terms instead. Brahmins are the NY/CA elite, Vaisyas are the Trump voting worker caste, etc.
I'm with Mz on this - we should start explicitly recognizing our caste system.
It's been helpful to me; once I figured out our castes and where I live in it, suddenly a lot of things clicked into place. For example, why do so many people not recognize me as white? It's because I don't give off the cultural signals of being upper caste (Brahmin in Moldbug's taxonomy) but I'm solidly within Brahim professional and social circles. Given these mismatched signals, Kashmiri or Argentinian seems like the most plausible hypothesis.
The fear of recognizing a caste system is that once you use words to describe something, the words themselves become a tool to reinforce and then codify that system.
I mean, India itself seems to be a prototypical example of that.
"It's entertaining how far we in the states go in denying we have classes."
America does have 'classes' but they are completely different from the type of class system you'll find in the 'old world'.
Many self-made Americans would consider themselves 'upper class', by virtue of wealth, status and behaviour. But classically, you really can't 'move' into class, you pretty much have to be born into it. Or possibly marry into it.
European class system is a hack around wealth in a society not always being distributed to the "right" people. Modern American class system simply assumes it has been distributed correctly and works around that.
The weather is truly the #1 icebreaker here in the UK. However, if you've spoken to someone at least twice before and still only keep talking about the weather then you start to look dim.
Amongst the upper and upper-middle classes, the concept and practice of politeness ensures conversation. Children are taught at a young age to take an interest (or at least feign an interest) in the other person and think of a line of conversation that may be appropriate.
If you chat to a Brit and get beyond the weather, you'll notice that you will be asked a lot of questions. It's part conversation and part fact-finding. Some people would rather fall off the end of the Earth than ask where the other person went to school (i.e. it's rude to pry), but with 20 little questions we can work all that out and carry a conversation at the same time.
That depends on where you live. For me, it's fine, because we have lots of interesting and/or annoying weather. For others, it's the same boring sunny day every day.
Brits also are much more okay with embracing the idea that there are separate classes. Americans like to think we are better than that and (like to imagine that we) treat all people in some idealized egalitarian fashion. In practice, it is a lot, lot harder to treat everyone equally well and try to ignore class divides than to have protocols in place for bridging the gap between people explicitly of different classes.
It's entertaining how far we in the states go in denying we have classes. Some years back a blogger tried to cook up a taxonomy of our class system. Since we don't have words to describe them he adopted archaic Indian terms instead. Brahmins are the NY/CA elite, Vaisyas are the Trump voting worker caste, etc.
https://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/05/castes...
Other writers have recognized and described it too: http://siderea.livejournal.com/1260265.html
Even our very own Michael O. Church: https://www.meetup.com/Philadelphia-Political-Agnostics/mess...
I'm with Mz on this - we should start explicitly recognizing our caste system.
It's been helpful to me; once I figured out our castes and where I live in it, suddenly a lot of things clicked into place. For example, why do so many people not recognize me as white? It's because I don't give off the cultural signals of being upper caste (Brahmin in Moldbug's taxonomy) but I'm solidly within Brahim professional and social circles. Given these mismatched signals, Kashmiri or Argentinian seems like the most plausible hypothesis.
Mz is not for a caste system. I am homeless and the top woman on hn.
Viva the difficult American social non system.
The fear of recognizing a caste system is that once you use words to describe something, the words themselves become a tool to reinforce and then codify that system.
I mean, India itself seems to be a prototypical example of that.
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"It's entertaining how far we in the states go in denying we have classes."
America does have 'classes' but they are completely different from the type of class system you'll find in the 'old world'.
Many self-made Americans would consider themselves 'upper class', by virtue of wealth, status and behaviour. But classically, you really can't 'move' into class, you pretty much have to be born into it. Or possibly marry into it.
1 reply →
European class system is a hack around wealth in a society not always being distributed to the "right" people. Modern American class system simply assumes it has been distributed correctly and works around that.
The weather is truly the #1 icebreaker here in the UK. However, if you've spoken to someone at least twice before and still only keep talking about the weather then you start to look dim.
Amongst the upper and upper-middle classes, the concept and practice of politeness ensures conversation. Children are taught at a young age to take an interest (or at least feign an interest) in the other person and think of a line of conversation that may be appropriate.
If you chat to a Brit and get beyond the weather, you'll notice that you will be asked a lot of questions. It's part conversation and part fact-finding. Some people would rather fall off the end of the Earth than ask where the other person went to school (i.e. it's rude to pry), but with 20 little questions we can work all that out and carry a conversation at the same time.
That depends on where you live. For me, it's fine, because we have lots of interesting and/or annoying weather. For others, it's the same boring sunny day every day.