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Comment by vertex-four

9 years ago

Gay people can't choose not to be gay. People can, however, choose whether they're going to be part of a political movement dedicated to the oppression and eventual "cleansing" of large groups of people primarily based on things those people can't choose. I really don't get why you can't see a difference.

23 comments

vertex-four

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philh  9 years ago

If gay people could choose not to be gay, would you have a different opinion about the cake shop?

  • vertex-four  9 years ago

    I'd still think it's awful because I don't see being gay as a bad or immoral thing - there's pretty much no imaginable situation in which allowing gay people to exist unhindered causes damage to anyone. I'd suggest that if being gay were a conscious choice, the shop should have a right to refuse service to gay people, but again, I'd have a right to stand outside their shop with placards, shout about it in the news, etc etc.

    On the other hand, allowing neo-nazis to go unhindered may quite reasonably result in people's deaths, so.

  • webXL  9 years ago

    Why are you even going down this road? Human beings are tribal. Tribes based on "choice" and tribes based on our DNA. We form numerous institutions based on this fact. Stop pretending otherwise. If I don't initiate force against you, you have no right to initiate force against me. If I don't want to trade with you, you have no right to demand me to trade with you. Why are we overlooking something that should be taught in Kindergarten???

gasof  9 years ago

So I guess we should forbid Zionism then? They actually succeeded in their ethnic cleansing of Israel.

Can a baker refuse to bake a cake for pro-Israel Jews? What about pro-choicers, can I refuse to serve them because of their concrete genocidal acts?

  • vertex-four  9 years ago

    I'd suggest that you could very well refuse to serve someone over their support of whichever side in the current Palestine occupation, as an example of something that might reasonably happen. And I don't think there's anything that would actually prevent you from refusing to serve pro-choicers, except that you'd probably go out of business quite quickly.

    I'd suggest that your customers would have a right to boycott you, protest you, and attempt to socially shame you if you did either of those things.

    • EdSharkey  9 years ago

      Please don't try to change the subject.

      The answer is: no, the baker cannot discriminate against pro-choice customers or else they'll be shutdown by the mob and cease being a baker.

      I think GP's point was that there's a nasty double standard as to whose conscience can be exercised and whose cannot.

      I think the gracious thing for you to do now would be to acknowledge that that double-standard exists AND confirm that you're fine with that double standard in some cases.

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