Comment by mbrock
9 years ago
I'm curious, if you imagine a possible historical situation, let's say a German business owner in the 1930s that took a stance of not offering services to Nazi organizations, does that appear commendable, or bad in the same "slippery slope" way that you apply in the present situation?
It seems to me that such a business owner would seem in hindsight to have been acting virtuously, and it seems that businesses that did in fact offer services to e.g. the Nazi party are now tarnished morally because of that.
>I'm curious, if you imagine a possible historical situation, let's say a German business owner in the 1930s that took a stance of not offering services to Nazi organizations, does that appear commendable, or bad in the same "slippery slope" way that you apply in the present situation?
How about the possible historical situation where a business owners doesn't offer services to the irish, jews, gays, blacks, etc?
Because those things have also happened -- and when you say it's ok to refuse those services to a group, you open a window for refusing those services to other groups too.
Just because consensus or power today is with the "good groups" (as far as you're concerned) doesn't change that fact.
It's even worse when what's right and wrong is even more muddy. E.g. someone criticizing their own country (like the Vietnam war protests) or in favor of a regime change etc.
Being Irish, Jewish, gay or black are not choices (for the most part, anyway) and do not inherently imply that you're intolerant of any other group. Being Nazi, on the other hand, is clearly a choice, and intolerance is inherent to it. I think the difference is clear.
Also, people arguing that companies should be required to serve and even create safe spaces for particular marginalised groups usually do so not from a "First Amendment" standpoint, but from the point of view that a sex life, gender identity or religious belief has higher inherent value than any particular prejudice against it.
If people would like to make the argument that Naziism also has higher inherent value than prejudices against Naziism, they are welcome to do so explicitly...
> How about the possible historical situation where a business owners doesn't offer services to the irish, jews, gays, blacks, etc?
I'm sorry if someone was born a nazi then.
Then you wouldn't mind if they didn't offer services to vegans, christians, hackers, etc, right?
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A more realistic historical example than yours (which assumes hindsight): what about the McCarthyism? "If these guys are communist let's not give them jobs, particularly in the medias where they could spread their ideas".
The US liberals kept a pretty sour memory of McCarthyism. But fundamentally it is no different.
There are many differences:
1. Nazis started WW2 with around 80 million deaths, including hundreds of thousands US soldiers, and killed 5-6 million Jews in the gas chambers of concentration camps.
2. McCarthyism originated from and was systematically exerted by the US government in many official capacities. There were vetting committees, job prohibitions, and other direct government interference including using intelligence agencies to gain information on US citizens. They didn't let Charlie Chaplin enter the US.
That's very different from a private company that ceases to make business with a Nazi website due to violations of their ToS.
On a side note, John von Neumann suggested to government officials to pro-actively launch a nuclear strike on Moskow. That tells you how different the climate was then as opposed to now.
Communists have started WW2 along with Nazis and are responsible for a big chunk of those deaths. They killed a lot of people in gulags as well.
If people with the this mindset would get to official government, how long would it take to launch McCarthyist-like policies?
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> It seems to me that such a business owner would seem in hindsight to have been acting virtuously,
No it wouldn't - There is a large percentage of population joining Nazi parties for convenience, for their career or even out of fear. Are you going to deny them the food you sell from your shop? If they are Nazi's, are they still not human beings deserving to access food in the market?
Does someone being a member of the Nazi party mean we can let them starve to death? Shoot them and push them into a trench even?
The moment you dehumanise vast swathes of the population, you've already lost and dropped to the level of "Nazi's". It's not wise to let your enemies turn you into them.
> If they are Nazi's, are they still not human beings deserving to access food in the market?
No, they can stop being nazi's at any point. Literally in less than a second.
Blacks, jews, gays, disabled people can't.
Stop trying to equate the two.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
People can abandon their religion at any time, but we still protect peoples' religious rights, no matter how odious their beliefs.
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I dispute your point - not everyone could have chosen to stop being nazis and live.
"Approximately 77,000 German citizens were killed for one or another form of resistance by Special Courts, courts-martial, People's Court and the civil justice system. "
"Almost every community in Germany had members taken away to concentration camps. As early as 1935 there were jingles warning: "Dear Lord God, keep me quiet, so that I don't end up in Dachau." (It almost rhymes in German: Lieber Herr Gott mach mich stumm / Daß ich nicht nach Dachau komm.)[17] "Dachau" refers to the Dachau concentration camp"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_to_Nazism
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And how do you know they are not nazis anymore?
They may stop looking and acting like nazis, but still believe the same ideas.
What do you really oppose? Nazis? People who look and talk like Nazis? People who perform horrible actions like the horrible actions the Nazis did?
Well, I might ask whether you think there is a difference between selling food to an individual who happens to be a member of the Nazi party, and catering for a Nazi party event?
The bottom line is: Am I going to let a man starve himself to death while I have a shop full of food? No.
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Let me ask you this then. If a homeless Nazi begged me for a dollar to get a McMuffin (not sure if those are on the dollar menu but take it as part of the hypothetical here) so they won't starve that day and I refuse to give them a dollar because they are an unrepentant Nazi, am I a bad person?
At what point do I as an individual have the right to not associate with a group or ideology that's seeks my destruction? Because that's really what's at the heart of the matter whether we're talking about Cloudflare or just me because I'm sure that Cloudflare has Jews, racial minorities, and LGBT folks on their staff. And I'm sure even some of those folks are even investors. So why should the investors and employees of Cloudflare protect Nazis who seek their destruction? For money? I can accept that it's a matter of profit, but if you're asking for a moral basis to aid those that want to kill you I can't see there being any argument in favor of protecting or aiding them.
>Does someone being a member of the Nazi party mean we can let them starve to death? Shoot them and push them into a trench even?
Historically, yes.