Comment by lmm
9 years ago
All those things are contrary to the principle of free speech. There are some things we consider important enough to override that principle - the right to avoid people you don't like, or to form a private association that excludes people you don't like (I won't get into the sex one because there's no clear simple principle there, rather we have a lot of complex and entangled notions).
It's important that a small private business should have the right to not do business with someone they don't want to do business with, but that's not an absolute principle, just as free speech is not[1]. Or rather, all of our principles can come into conflict.
The idea that an entity that processes 10% of internet traffic can exclude someone from expressing their opinions - vile and hateful as they may be - via that entity, is scary. Scarier than not being able to express a given opinion in many countries, frankly. I'm not even saying CloudFlare is necessarily in the wrong here, but it's certainly not a non-issue.
[1] Not to be confused with the US First Amendment, which is very close to absolute where it applies, but does not apply to many cases where the principle of free speech is relevant.
It is a non issue.
Look, the spirit behind free speech is the principle of the bazaar of ideas.
The place where everyone can meet, exchange and learn. If someone sells something and it's distasteful, well you learn that you don't like it.
That's the spirit, which too many people don't understand, or don't go far enough to understand.
In this bazaar are now thugs, they sell wares designed to disrupt the bazaar, to addict customers, and to stop more complex goods from being sold.
They choose to disrupt the bazaar, and they count on those who repeat "free speech", to tie themselves down and not stop them.
Like a child taunting someone by saying "prove that 2+2 is not = 5."
Valid questions which have hard proofs are regularly used to tie up discussion. It's done intentionally in order to "win".
There's no victory here- the opposition isn't playing by the rules. when there is no good faith, then there is no discussion.
>n this bazaar are now thugs, they sell wares designed to disrupt the bazaar, to addict customers, and to stop more complex goods from being sold.
The problem with that example is the same thing can be used to describe MLK during the 60s. He was all of that by most of the people who lived during that time. It can be applied to pornography, or Catcher in the Rye. You either squash distasteful ideas or you don't. Here's a little secret for you younger folks. The stuff the next generation does, you might find distasteful, but it's the future. They have to be allowed to try on new ideas. If you don't those ideas become more attractive because they are forbidden fruit.
The nice thing about allowing Stormwhatever to speak, is it allows people to see them for what they are. If you squelch them, well, that just makes them stronger.
You have to be able to apply it to people who you admire and people you despise.
I do: I apply it to both. And I'm what passes for the new generation of grey beards.
I too am an acolyte for the cult of free speech.
The key difference being I test the ideas and beliefs in the real world. I signed up to mod a subreddit which was in trouble and I saw what worked and what didn't.
I urge you and others to make that time investment.
You are worried about catcher in the rye- we're long past protecting it. What's being fought are memes - mind bombs and channel stuffers.
We are fighting to let thought survive, in the face of people intentionally releasing material designed to hijack human brains via emotion.
Catcher in the rye is not what's being protected.
The foundation for civilization scale thought is what's being defended.
You are using a paragon to defend something unrelated.
You assume a lot of things about the current state of discourse and the motives of the attaxkers.
They aren't debating Marxism or porn. They're trying to drown out other ideas, and to tie Down people who present cogent counter arguments.
Want a non tech example? Take a look at anti vacc or creationism.
Those are ideas designed to be consumed by human brains- polarize them and then herd them away from information which could counter the infection.
That's not the bazaar of ideas. Thats not free speech.
That's what's happening.
And we have nothing to defend against it.
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So how do we distinguish between ideas that "win" in the bazaar of ideas, and ideas that "disrupt" the bazaar of ideas?
There are some things we consider important enough to override that principle - the right to ... to form a private association that excludes people you don't like
Please cite your source for showing where a "private association" that is not a public accommodation cannot discriminate, or explain why any church can bar non-believers from membership.