Comment by astura
9 years ago
MMM is too smug and pushy for a good portion of the general public. His writing can awfully hostile, it could be toned down a bit and his message would get further - some of his advice is very sensible.
The problem with frugal blogs (in general) is they do one or more of the following; push penny pinching 24/7, "if you aren't eating lentils everyday and living in a cardboard box you're fucking up," they are too condescending, or they are only applicable to the already rich/privileged, like Mitt Romney's "just borrow 10s of thousands of dollars from your parents to start a business, easy!," and are out of touch with they "everyday man," or fail to recognize that people are different than them.
I think I could write a blog that is more accessible, I have experience being both very high income and very low income. It's such a saturated market though I doubt I'd get any readers. Maybe I'll do it just for myself some day to formulate some of the thoughts I have on the topic.
I think MMM knows his audience, it isn't for me but I can imagine many people do get something out of it.
Really the main problem is there just isn't much to say, spend less than you earn, invest the difference, develop some self-sufficiency.
I didn't know what "spend less than you earn, invest the difference, develop some self-sufficiency" meant 15-20 or so years ago though, they were just words. I didn't know what a 401(k) was, I didn't know what an IRA was, I didn't know what a brokerage account was, I didn't know what a mutual fund was, I didn't know what an ETF was, I didn't know what "equity" meant, I only had a vague idea of what investments were, I didn't even know what the stock market was other than "its something to do with money."
Plus that advise isn't applicable to everyone. A college student doesn't have the same finances as a dual income couple in their 30s with two kids. Someone with a $70k income has much different prorities than someone with a $30k income. I think finances is a journey, not a destination.
I think one of the first tenets of financial freedom/independence is figuring out life priorities, not everyone is going to have the same spending because everyone really enjoys different things. Oftentimes people don't even know what they really enjoy and where their spending brings them most life satisfaction so it requires a lot of self reflection and communication/negotiation with family members and maybe questioning cultural norms and expectations. I don't think that financial independence/frugality should about hording money so much as it should be about making your money work for you in the most optimal way possible.
There's also nuances to discussions about money like how it affects interpersonal relationships (and not just romantic ones) and the psychological aspects of money and spending.
You have a good point about him "know[ing] his audience" though, so thank you for pointing that out.
All those things you didn't know are irrelevant if you spend more than you earn, this is the situation most people are in. It applies whether you are a student or coming to the end of your career. Most people need to absorb that simple message.
I personally enjoy his style. MMM is clearly a character that he plays and is deliberately provocative. There are other more level headed financial independence blogs out there but I don't find any of them as entertaining as MMM.
> I have experience being both very high income and very low income.
See, I could do the same thing, but the blog would really boil down to a single post - "stop fucking around and just learn web dev." I really don't see a more accessible route to go low income to high income.
MMM does have this:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/07/25/50-jobs-over-50000...
Web dev is great for a lot of people, perhaps not for everyone.
As for MMM is general, I personally love his style. I remember back in grad school, I stumbled upon his blog, I think from an HN comment. I was hooked. I read through years of blog posts in a few months. I probably factored heavily into my decision of not going for the PhD (stopped at MASc).
Although I still think he makes a lot of good points, my take on frugality and my personal finance goals are a bit more, um, nuanced these days. For anyone who'd be interested in a quick intro to his core ideas, I highly recommend this 28 min talk, it's a really fun watch:
https://vimeo.com/183016901
My comfort zone with regard to frugality is much less extreme than MMM's. Probably nearer Dave Ramsey's part of the spectrum.
I like the MMM blog because it's a good source of concepts/tips to try, but you don't have to treat it like gospel. For example, the DIY home maintenance and investing tips resonate with me, but the "rewards credit card" not so much.
Also, doesn't take into account healthcare costs and things like hurricanes and floods and disasters that afflict a lot of people.
> Also, doesn't take into account healthcare costs
See http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/11/01/our-new-237-per-mo... and http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/17/its-all-about-the-...
"Third level of safety: optional part-time work."
Don't you find it hilarious that a blog on financial independence tries to talk about safety nets vs. risks and devolves to: Well, sh*t just get a job I guess, but call it optional because you are "retired"? I do.
It is how you end up with 80 year old wal-mart greeters.
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It's hard to effectively criticize consumer culture without sounding hostile to consumers. It would be worse for his persuasiveness to err on the side of appeasing the dominant cultural sentiment.
He has several rentals and lives off other families. We can't all do that. It's not a real, scalable solution. It's not genuine.
He does have rentals. But he doesn't live off that money. He's done income reports (see this one from 2016[0]) that show where the money comes from and where it goes.
[0]: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/05/19/2016-spending/
Personally, I find rent-seeking landlords to be an unethical pursuit. I know that's not a mainstream thought, and is the underpinning of many people's income strategy ... but I can't support the idea of letting a family live in a property for decades, and then something happening, and they're on the street with nothing to show for the tens of thousands of dollars they have given in rent.
The reason to rent is for the ability to move on demand.
If a family is renting in the same place for decades, that is their problem. The moment you realize you are going to stay in one place for an extended period of time, there is no reason to continue renting. Sure, not everybody can purchase their dream home. But they can purchase something small, build equity, and upgrade in the future. The government also has programs to help first time buyers, especially those with less income.
Again, the primary reason to rent is so you can relocate. If you are not planning on relocating in the 5-10 years, you should own, or be working on owning.
Furthermore, the landlord is taking on risk (risk of the market moving against him, risk of the tenant not paying him or the place remaining unoccupied after a tenant leaves), is paying property taxes, insurance, is responsible for broken appliances, and is also often taking on a loan with higher interest rates.
Should all of this be provided for free?
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What exactly should be the relationship between the person who owns a home and the person that lives in it then? One of charity? Or do you think private home ownership is in and of itself wrong?
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I'm sure you have some properties where families can live for free, or at least only have to pay half of the rent? Or you give away interest free montages so they can buy their own place?
If not, what the fuck are you talking about then? Landlords offer a service for money. Since when is that unethical?
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"I can't support the idea of letting a family buy food for decades, then something happening, and they're starving with nothing to show for the tens of thousands of dollars they have spent on food."
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I'm with you and need someone smarter to make a better argument against renting than I can formulate on my own. All
What I was taught: Renting is often times optimal, totally fine, the right choice for a lot of people!
What my experience has taught me: Renting is for suckers or the incredibly wealthy that want to be able to move to a new city on a whim. I was a sucker for many years, and paid a very rich man 100k+ for the luxury of paying down his mortage. Never again.
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There are plenty of families who have no interest in buying even if they can afford it easily. One doesn't have to prey on the impoverished to have rental income.
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That's the deal. I like renting because if I want real estate exposure I could buy a diversified REIT.