Comment by zeusk
8 years ago
The scale of products you're talking about are vastly different.
Meanwhile, I'd really like for people to stop hating Microsoft just because "Microsoft".
8 years ago
The scale of products you're talking about are vastly different.
Meanwhile, I'd really like for people to stop hating Microsoft just because "Microsoft".
> Meanwhile, I'd really like for people to stop hating Microsoft just because "Microsoft"
OK, I respect the call for keeping an open mind. Always a good approach. But let's not forget all of the moves toward a friendlier Microsoft/Linux world looks suspiciously like "Embrace"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
I for one am willing to keep an open mind, but will be following these types of developments closely.
I hope to be proven wrong.
Then EVERY single other business of its size has a strategy that looks like "Embrace". The only difference is that Microsoft had a memo leak.
... which is exactly the problem. The issue is the tactic, not the company employing it. It’s just this company has a serious habit of employing those tactics, hence the distrust.
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That might be the reason why many people dislike all businesses of Microsoft's size. I for one wouldn't be happy if Google or Amazon or Apple bought Github either.
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The Memo leak was just the tip of the iceberg. MS also lost multiple court cases about their anticompetitive behaviour (for example gov of US, Sun) in that era.
Did you forget the Extend, Extinguish parts of the strategy, or are you just paraphrasing EEE to make it sound somewhat ok?
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EVERY single statement that contains "EVERY single" are false. Including this one.
Besides, what kind of argument is that ? Some people do bad things, so it's ok to do it ? I know 5 years old that don't use this anymore.
> But let's not forget all of the moves toward a friendlier Microsoft/Linux world looks suspiciously like "Embrace"
“Embrace” is happening everywhere these days. Don’t sound the alarm until you see Extend.
Wsl is getting scarily close to Linux performance in benchmarks and improving fast. I don't see extend being too far away...
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I am sure no one in the company has changed since that memo leaked in 1996...
Developers that exclusively use MS stack are very similar to those exclusive to Delphi. MS and Delphi stacks are very specific in nature and very different from everything else out there. Developers stepping out of those feel very uncomfortable and unfamiliar, thus wanting to stay in. Even though the Delphi stack is very obviously dying, the resistance is great, and many people stay on the sinking ship. MS stack is live and well which gives a viable incentive to never even look over the fence. That is the problem with developers exclusive in MS stack, they are not flexible and they don't want to be. They want everything to be done "the MS way". Where does that put GH? How will it change, in what direction (to accommodate the MS stack)?
> That is the problem with developers exclusive in MS stack, they are not flexible and they don't want to be. They want everything to be done "the MS way".
And unix developers complain endlessly about any dev environment that isn't identical to what they use. Powershell gets shit because it isn't bash/core-utils (even though it's better in just about every conceivable way), Windows API gets shit for not being posix (even though posix is a crappy API), etc.
Delphi might be a small community compared to JVM or MS. Is Delphi dying?
I work in the M/Mumps space(healthcare), another small (almost invisible) but active community and it seems far from dying. I imagine Delphi is bigger.
I wonder how long the MS stack would last without the support of MS. Would the MS stack fare as well as the Ruby stack has without Microsoft’s massive investment in turning developers into sharecroppers? (Or salesforce, scala, unreal, php, erlang, etc.)
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How does this personally affect you such that you consider it your duty to disparage whole groups of developers for the choices that they make ?
Did it ever occur to you that people stick with certain environments because they make a lot of money using them ?
Your statement basically reads as "I can't believe that people/companies have the nerve to stick with a codebase that cost them thousands of dollars to create and has made them very successful over the last couple of decades..."
> Meanwhile, I'd really like for people to stop hating Microsoft just because "Microsoft".
To be fair, Microsoft need to stop doing stuff that makes people dislike them. Microsoft aggressively court developers who don't use their platforms, but if you are a Microsoft partner or worse, a mere Windows user, you don't always feel so loved.
Case in point: ads in Windows 10.
Mod parent up. I bought a Surface Pro thinking I should give Windows 10 Pro a chance with WSL on it. Even the “Pro” version comes with bubble gum jam games on it, ads, spyware / telemetry and the like. No way of removing it. I wiped Windows 10 after a week and installed Ubuntu.
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Are these only available in Home edition? I'm in pro edition and have ever seen any ads. I also use ClassicShell start menu so maybe that's why I never see it...
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People hate Microsoft for "being Microsoft" BECAUSE of what Microsoft is, does and has done.
I'm sure you will find most people who voice those opinions have their own reasons, based on history, to be distrustful of Microsoft and the way this acquisition will be handled.
> Meanwhile, I'd really like for people to stop hating Microsoft just because "Microsoft"
Why is that? Why should people forget how evil MS was and still is?
> Why is that? Why should people forget how evil MS was and still is?
I'm not asking for that, but making wild baseless predictions of how the service will go to shitter or how suddenly all private code will be ripped off and "I'm going to gitlab now, because Microsoft sucks!" is not part of a healthy discussion.
I do have some privacy concerns but they're no less than when Github was not owned by an enterprise software company; If anything I'd be more concerned about privacy if it were Google or Facebook making this acquisition.
People base their expectations on past performance. And for MS it hasn’t been stellar. But there is no need for speculation; we will wait and see.
The problem is deeper than that though. Unless you were developing an Editor or a Git hosting service, you were not in direct competition with GitHub. Suddenly a lot of startups will find their private code hosted by a direct competitor. I wouldn’t feel comfortable if I was them.
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OK I'll avoid iterating the ludicrously long list of Microsoft acquisitions that immediately did go to shit. Often intentionally, like AutoRoute straight after purchase from Nextbase.
All I need do to have concern about this acquisition is look to last year. https://archive.codeplex.com/
How long before they get bored of github then? Codeplex wasn't as good or popular as github, but did seem to have many valid reasons for existence if you were Windows focused. So they killed it.
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> I'm not asking for that, but making wild baseless predictions of how the service will go to shitter or how suddenly all private code will be ripped off and "I'm going to gitlab now, because Microsoft sucks!" is not part of a healthy discussion.
But they're not baseless predictions, they're based on past information and it tells us it would be prudent to minimize reliance of Github sooner rather than later.
I'm not really interested in being part of a "healthy discussion" with Microsoft. There are enough people telling Microsoft about all the things it is doing to make people dislike it.
It knows what these things are. If it wants to stop doing them, then I'm happy to use some of its products. Until then, I'm going to gitlab now, because Microsoft sucks!
> baseless
If the company that ships OS with preinstalled, hidden keyloggers (using that as a pars pro toto) acquires the platform I host my code on, that's not a basis on which to be concerned?
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Do you have examples of Microsoft acquiring technology that was beloved and embraced by it's community and making it better?
MGS did right by Bungie/Halo circa XBox; though Halo hadn't yet been released, and it's initial fanbase were all Marathon fans.
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After what they did to Skype, such predictions are hardly baseless.
Evil are the companies that pollute rivers, sponsor wars, have work conditions on borderline slavery, agree to work with dictatorship governments....
No. Software developers, doctors, post delivery personell, whatever, is supposed to do the best in their own field, and just because there are other sectors which are considerably worse doesn't mean that we should let ours ever fall to that level too. It's not difficult to see a dystopiant future in which software might help create the most horrible of all societies, and its reach could also be global.
> Why is that?
Because this isn't slashdot.
The call is not to forget - I didn’t see that from the comment.
However knee jerk responses are today out of line with MSFTs behavior and actual ability.
Simply they are anti-objective and inefficient in discussing current reality.
Don't forget how evil Github is!
I agree... GH is evil
Because Microsoft was never that evil and they aren't evil today. It took me seeing the stuff Apple got away with the iPhone to see what a non-issue Microsoft 90s desktop hegemony was. The fear was overblown.
They were convicted of anti-competitive behavior, and that was after at least a decade of unprovable rumors and industry open-secret of anti-competitive behavior. How much more clear-cut of a case do you need?
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Telemetry and ads in an OS you paid for, which supposedly targets the “Pro” market. That’s not evil?
Not being the worst of the bunch doesn't mean you're good.
I wasted many years using Windows, an OS that I gained nothing from using except memorizing UI patterns. This may be great for some, but I really developed as a computer person when I got OS X, which allowed me to use Unix without diving into Linux. The impact was huge. I still think sadly about the wasted years clicking around Windows.
Just the other day I was helping my mom with some C# code in VS, stepping through lines in the debugger. When I hit some library code I excpected to step into the library code, like in Java. Instead it force stepped over. Wouldn’t even let me see a decompile, like XCode shows you for code without available source. That’s microsoft for you. You get some binary libraries, docs that may or may not be crap, and Steve Balmer screaming “developers developers developers” while you bang your head trying to figure out some poorly documented library works. Microsoft relies on users’ ignorance, Stockholm syndrome, and the perception that Apple is more expensive. You get so much more from Apple, it’s incomparable.
That said this acquisition seems like a great fit and doesn’t trouble me at all. As much as I love it, GitHub is nothing special. Microsoft has little to ruin and a lot to improve. Seems like a solid vanity pickup for MSFT, and a good source of guiding vision for GH.
That is all down to your config. If you go to "Tools \ options" , then in that dialog, expand the "Debugging" node and select "General", you can "Enable .Net Framework source stepping", and you can also tweak the way the debugger handles external code with "Enable just my code" and "step over properties and operators". There's loads more - by default it is really paired down.
I really would love to see how XCode is able to display anything for binary Objective-C libraries, beyond pure Assembly.
If you want pure Assembly in binary libraries in C++ and C#, Visual Studio can also display them, one just needs to select the right options.
> I really would love to see how XCode is able to display anything for binary Objective-C libraries, beyond pure Assembly.
Indeed it only shows disassembly. I was frustrated that VS wouldn't even show me that. Others write that newer VS lets you enable the showing of assembly.
Anyway, I am spoiled by Java, where I can step into standard library code (which is in Java), can decompile to produce pretty nice Java source where the source is not available, and IntelliJ, which automatically downloads the source where it is publicly available. It's quite wonderful. But I am guessing you already know this, judging from your profile.
To me, not being beholden to documentation is an incredible freedom. The ability to just pop open the source to understand the tool you're working with is indispensable once you've experience that freedom. Microsoft developers don't have this ability, and having had it, it's hard to imagine being without.
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Visual Studio 2017 15.6 shipped a new feature called "Navigate to Decompiled Sources" in March.
Read-up on MS's ongoing Linux patent racket and you might change your tune.
I don't see how it relates to Github but sure, link me to someplace I can read up on it because a Google search of "Microsoft Linux patent racket" only led me to an obvious troll bait blog.
Can't reply to the child comment so replying here:
> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/20/signs_deal_with_cas...
You just look at that shit. Look:
> We’re pleased to reach an agreement and to see continued recognition of the value of our patent portfolio, particularly as it relates to operating systems,
Nothing evil here, move along, lol. Fucking cockroaches. For a multi-billion OS giant you sure are afraid of something 'small' and produced by volunteers that gives users their freedom. What a pathetic display.
https://meshedinsights.com/2016/11/22/microsoft-linux-patent...
That was only 18 months ago at which time MS had harvested a cool $85 million form its Linux patent racket. God knows what the Linux Foundation were smoking when they accepted Microsoft's membership. Suse Linux is another victim of Microsoft's extortion. Worst is the patents remain unspecified, as far as I'm aware.
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Microsoft milks Casio for using Linux: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/20/signs_deal_with_cas...
And there are many more companies they've sued for using Linux.
Well, you may love to forget, but a lot of us don't.
We didn't forget that our community was called a cancer (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/06/02/ballmer_linux_is_a_...)
We didn't forget that microsoft is one of the biggest pattent troll in the world (http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=... or http://www.asymco.com/2011/05/27/microsoft-has-received-five...).
We didn't forget than they litterally corrupted officials to capture markets (https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandrawrage/2013/03/20/micro... and https://www.tomshardware.fr/articles/pots-de-vin-microsoft,1...)
We didn't forget monopolistic practices (https://www.networkworld.com/article/2221165/microsoft-subne... or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor...)
We didn't forget the lies (http://practical-tech.com/operating-system/2096/) and sabotage (http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2009051922175320).
We didn't forget they aided dictators (https://www.salon.com/2011/09/06/wikileaks_microsoft_tunisia) or destroyed products you bought remotly (http://sebsauvage.net/rhaa/?2010/01/06/13/21/41-microsoft-pe...).
We didn't forget they force updated Win10 and all the integrated ads and spywares, after a terrible Win8 while everybody was happy with win 7.
We didn't forget that microsoft killed rare, nokia, skype and that currently outlook is becomming less and less usable everyday.
So yeah, VSCode, Excel, TypeScript, the Xbox and C# are good products. So what ?
Unless you suddently fire everybody from MS, change their raison de vivre, and reboot them, they are still Microsoft.
Attitude like yours is why crooked politicians get reelected. Why big companies can mess up with consummers and get away with it.
People say that you can't change the world. That you can't do anything about what's wrong. They feel helpless.
I'd start with stopping this habit of giving a free pass to all the entities with a disrespectful background just because they got better on some points. Or because they have a better PR.
Because they do. Half of the links I had on them were cleaned off. They are green washing them, cm by cm. Until all that remains is that they were the good guys.
Upvoted you for going through the effort to put these points so eloquently together :)
However, it's not forbidden for MS to change their ways and public image. There is no danger anymore of depending too much on MS tech today. And there's the tactical argument of "the enemy of your enemy" if you know what I mean; eg. these days it's all about about your attention and invading your privacy (and MS also has no clean hands here). But still MS is mostly a software company with a predictable pattern, unlike darker forces able to influence public opinion to a degree not seen before, while MS shilling and astroturfing is easily spotted and amateurish by comparison.
The things I'm more concerned about when it comes to GitHub I've already posted in another story:
They could change the terms of service and essentially drive certain types of projects away. They could limit access to older builds and versions to non-paying customers. They could limit access to verified/signed builds. They could reserve certain rights to your software such as they did with npmjs.com. They could run ads, offer IT staff skill matching and promotions, FizzBuzz-like services, or other LinkedIn integrations. They could come up with clever schemes for offering commercial licensing for open source. They could go after the enterprise package mirrors and policy checkers market Artifactory et al are serving. Not saying they'll be doing that (MS isn't stupid), but given MS is selling mainly to enterprises, there are many creative ways they could make money of it.
Overall, however, I'm not too worried. In fact, I think GitHub has become too much of a monopoly (though I have absolutely nothing against them at all), and I'm always for more choice.
> And there's the tactical argument of "the enemy of your enemy
I agree on this one. After all, IE is now in great shape because of the competition.
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Hold on. GitHub has become too much of a monopoly? And this is somehow fixed by being acquired by Microsoft?
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> We didn't forget that our community was called a cancer
This is disingenuous. He was referring to the licensing model of certain open-source projects, where the introduction of a single line of code coming from an open source project would require the whole of the Windows stack to be open-source, effectively "contaminating" the rest of the stack. To this day this is still a problem to many companies and legal department must carefully review the licensing of the libraries used by their devs.
Yeah, this is so disingenuous, Balmer had really no other words to use. This was totally appropriate, and as a FOSS lover and somebody that was able to make half of my carreer thanks to those licences, I should not be offended. No matter how much of my free time I spend on projects protected by said licence.
Espacially since the economical model of microsoft is to lock you in by using softwares and formats that call for getting the entire stack with it, hence infecting your business. But it's ok because they make you pay for it.
And I note that you choose the most important points of all my comment to focus on.
I'm glad some people still defend them. It's good honest people take care of those innocent little guys.
That's a choice that the developers choose to make to enforce their wishes. It's supposed to be embraced by a capitalistic system, i.e. they choose to serve only the customers who abide by their terms. Free market!
I don't think MS, whose OS infects every PC on store shelves has any place to complain.
They cant just ask for forgiveness after all that they have done.
Action speaks louder than words. I don't care about Open Soruces or Paid or Free. Bring me better products! Bring me better services. Proof it to me that they care.
They are obviously doing a lot of things right under Nadella. But asking many to not hating them after 4 years of good and 20 to 40 years of bad may be is a little too much to ask for. They will have to do a lot more to wins us back.
As soon as SQL Server isn’t an inescapable trap for your data, my impression of Microsoft will improve on the developer side.
Right now the idea of doing things that every other major Relational DB can do, like hook directly to ElasticSearch or feed live data into an outside system is crippled. It’s hard to see that as anything other than a business decision that negatively impacts my codebase.
The name is burnt. They still are a company with business interests. While their interests might align today with the open source community this doesn't have to be so tomorrow and there is no resistance internally to burn these bridges they are building today.
I actually was never anti-Microsoft but I must say that the aggressive, user-hostile moves they made with Windows 10 seriously irked me.
Microsoft need to stop creating sub-par products.
Skype is absolute junk...takes me 15 mins to get a call working each time.
Microsoft Teams/Planner is junk too.
I understand things are changing, but it still feels like they have weak product managers who don't care about the quality and polish of their products.
Haloween documents, and literally the twenty years they've been trying to destroy free software.
Not to mention . . :
https://twitter.com/jamiebuilds/status/1002696910266773505
Tl;dr, Microsoft ignored his license, attributed nothing, and copied his program directory-by-directory.
Fuck Microsoft. Trust them with email, not your software.
What about the people who hate Apple just because `Apple`?
(or any other form of "brand envy" against other companies, for that matter.)
> What about the people who hate Apple just because `Apple`?
Yeah, sure. I'm totally on that but this isn't a thread about Apple, is it?
Blatant what-about-ism.
Dislike the word "hate". It is more people that have been in the industry for a long time know what Microsoft has been all about for a very long time.
But finally we have a new culture in software. Where big tech give away crazy amounts of IP. Google gave away Map/Reduce and K8s and TF and so many papers. FB has given away so much also.
We finally had a single and neutral site which everyone uses.
So things were just fantastic and then the old guard just can't resist and messes it up. Now the big tech companies will have to move to a new site and a single place is no more.
Looks like they will move to GitLab which will just become the new GitHub and ironically way down the road MS will probably have to move their code to GitLab if it becomes the new place.
There are many, many developers, most developers?, that do not use any MS developement technology. Now without them wanting it MS has injected themselves and will cause a hassle. Either moving your repo to GitLab or now having to go to multiple places to find things. Or confusion if the repo is on Github or Gitlab. It is not a huge hassle but a hassle that was not necessary.
That is the thing. The new leaders in the tech world are all about moving the ENTIRE industry forward. But MS move here has slowed the industry as people have new work to deal with it.
BTW, do hope we can put to rest that MS has changed. Clearly they have not. I never really thought it as company cultures rarely change. But here is the nice black and white proof.
You are native to think they want to support open source. This is an American, capitalistic company who have crushed many opponents exactly the way they are doing now. Embrace, extend, extinguish. It's their thing. You can Google it even.
The funny thing is that Google is 20x as evil, and the fanboys still love them
Oh please, very few people actually like Google.