Comment by lewisjoe

I actually don't know of any functional programming languages that don't have syntactic and semantic support for writing step-by-step algorithms.

Okay, so first of all this is an excellent joke. But it's not that great of an analogy.

This quote chooses one of many FP syntaxes. It's cherry picking. It uses "a = b where c = d." That's equivalent to "let c = d in a = b." Let will allow you to write things like:

    let
        cake_ingredients = [butter, white sugar, sugar]
        batter = cream(ingredients=cake_ingredients,
                       dish=large_bowl,
                       condition=LIGHT_AND_FLUFFY)
        prepped_pans = pans_full_of(batter)
        oven = preheat(your_over, 175 C)
        cake = bake(cake, 30 minutes)
    in
        dessert_tonight = cooled(cake)

This isn't where FP and imperative are different.

What's really different is that the let statement doesn't define execution order. That's not so relevant to this part of the mental modeling though.

I think it's great that I can choose between "let ... in ..." or "... where ...". In real life, for a complex bit of language, I happen to often like putting the main point at the top (like a thesis statement), then progressively giving more details. Mix and match however's clear.

> How baking a cake in FP looks like:

> * A cake is a hot cake that [...]

The difference between a functional programmer and an imperative programmer is an imperative programmer looks at that and says “yeah, great takedown of FP”, while a functional programmer says, “what’s with the unbounded recursion?”

But, more seriously, it's long been established that real programming benefits from use of both imperative and declarative (the latter including—but not limited to—functional) idioms, which is why mainstream imperative OO languages have for more than decade importing functional features at a mad clip, and why functional languages have historically either been impure (e.g., Lisp and ML and many of their descendants) or included embedded syntax sugar that supports expressing imperative sequences using more conventionally imperative idioms (e.g., Haskell do-notation.)

The difference is that embedding functional idioms in imperative languages often requires warnings about what you can and cannot do safely to data without causing chaos, while imperative embeddings in functional code have no such problems.

And then you actually try to write it in a functional language, and end up with something like:

cake = map (cool . bake 30 175) . splitIntoPans $ mix [ butter, sugar, walnuts ]

If you want to bake a cake, FP like this could seem awkward.

But what if you want to run a bakery and split the work across multiple cooks? In that case it helps to have clearly defined ingredients.

I'm only trying to say that it all depends on the context. Obviously personal preference is a big factor too.

but now that you've written the cake baking data type, with a little small tweak, you've got a bread baking data type.

Baking a cake is like being a compiler and a processor for recipe instructions. Of course it seems awkward from the perspective of a human baker because before you can process/bake you have to "compile" the expression to procedural steps. The computer does that without complaint.

This may illustrate that humans aren't good compilers of functional code, or in particular that humans aren't good at parsing poorly formatted functional code (again, computer parsers don't care about formatting). But I don't think it indicates that functional code isn't good for reading and writing, even for the same humans.

I also don't think this recipe resembles FP. Where are the functions and their arguments? There is no visible hieararchy. It is unnecessarily obtuse in the first place.

Same example of baking a cake to explain functional programming in R by Hadley Wickham. A good presentation.

https://speakerdeck.com/hadley/the-joy-of-functional-program...

You should read the OOP version of "for want of a nail" proverb near the end of this post (http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/execution-in-kingdom...).

> In any case the point is this: I had some straight imperative code that was doing the same thing several times. In order to make it generic I couldn’t just introduce a loop around the repeated code, but I had to completely change the control flow. There is too much puzzle solving here. In fact I didn’t solve this the first time I tried. In my first attempt I ended up with something far too complicated and then just left the code in the original form. Only after coming back to the problem a few days later did I come up with the simple solution above.

There are two kinds of people, I guess. To me, this description simply encapsulates the process of being a programmer. Boo hoo, you had to think a little bit and come back later to a hard problem in order to figure it out.

I'm sorry, but that's literally how every profession which requires engineering skills plays out. And like other professions, after you solve a problem once you don't have to solve the problem again. It's solved. The next template Gabriel writes in that flavor will not take nearly as long.

Seriously, all of these points he raises against FP are entirely contrived, and come across as the meaningless complaining of an uninspired programmer.

Never seen that before, thanks! It's very funny.

I can't write Lisp to save my life, but I know roughly how you're supposed to do it.

It's a good analogy! But it also shows that in FP you have to specify what is needed for what and what happens why. If you wrote that imperatively, you could include steps like "go outside, count clouds, return" or "place a metal bowl next to everything, put some cereals inside". And then never return to that bowl again, just leave it like that. The programmer wanted to use this bowl for something, but then forgot it was there.

And then, when someone returns to that code, they have no idea that these steps are unnecessary and why each step was taken. (Or maybe they are necessary, because cloud counting ensures there is time for ingredients to permeate?). So probably these steps will be left and more mess and jungle will accumulate.

>I suspect I'm just not smart enough

Nah, I have a PhD in math and I agree with you completely. Imperative is way better. And most mathematicians agree with me. You can see this by cracking open any actual math or logic journal and looking how they write pseudocode (yes, pseudocode: where things like performance don't matter one tiny little bit). You'll see they're almost entirely imperative. Sometimes they even use GOTO!

Lately I’ve been thinking that a lot of code style debates center around an explicit versus implicit axis. Imperative is more explicit, and, in one sense, easier to see what’s going on since it lays everything out step by step. On the other hand, those same steps are a mix of essential steps (that deal with the problem being solved) and accidental steps (that deal with computer and code in order to get the job done.)

It seems to me that OOP, Functional, and Relational programming models try to abstract away the accidental steps, but like all abstractions there are limitations.

I suspect that once familiar with one of these models, imperative seems awfully tedious, however now the code is more obscure to those not well versed in the paradigm, thus we have a trade off between ease of use for many and optimal for some.

This doesn't look to me like the difference between functional and imperative so much as the difference between recursion / iteration and map / list comprehension.

It’s mostly a matter of practice. I think that many people’s experience of functional programming is a (potentially poorly-taught) university course, during which there is not really enough time to really become comfortable with functional programming. Maybe it’s true that the learning curve is a bit (a lot?) steeper, though. But once you are comfortable with it, it’s not significantly more difficult than writing code in Java or Python. I also think that it’s worth learning even just for the sake of becoming a better programmer. It teaches you to think in a different way, which also translates to programming in imperative languages.

The fact to he took the time to do that shows who the real man-child is

Ah yes, I didn't remeber at first why that domain was added to my hosts blacklist.

The latest no-OOP imperative language with any kind of market share is C. So everything that's terrible about C: unsafe manual memory, portability issues, tooling, no generics or overloading, horrible ergonomics, 2nd class functions, globals everywhere, etc, are all forever associated with imperative programming. OOP was born at the time of fixing all those problems, so those languages were a big improvement in ways that had nothing to do with OOP. Now that all the top languages are multi-paradigm, only a puritan would avoid OOP, and they'd have a tough time interacting with libraries and frameworks. So every codebase is a little wishy-washy and OOP wins by default. Imperative has no advocates left in industry or academia, so most people don't even think of it as a defensible design decision.