Comment by lykahb
5 years ago
The neutral companies, such as utilities, online hosting or financial providers serve nearly everyone with little objections - they defer to the law rather than any internal policies. The more selective companies such as newspapers and TV channels are expected to restrict who can get published.
By representing itself both as an open platform and as a company with progressive values, Twitter has put itself into an awkward in-between spot and is bound to create such controversies.
Online hosting or financial providers have never been "neutral."
Twitter has never been a "Utility" in the way that you may be imagining it to be.
Yes, of course - but - it is becoming so.
Twitter and Facebook are starting to approach the threshold of 'public good' wherein at least, there would need to be rules or regulations.
If TW and FB did not actually regulate their content - we would see this exposed much more quickly. Foreign/Russian interference in elections would immediately force Congress to act, there's just too much power.
Aside from the ambiguities of 'how and what to police' we do have the added complexity of the nature of 'large, ostensibly public platforms' managed by private companies.
The argument is that it's getting there. It's the leading platform for public debate in the US right now. Journalists spend their days refreshing their Twitter feed, so the effect isn't just in the size of Twitter's platform but its influence.
Twitter is a plague on public discourse. We'd be better off as a society if it were never invented. If I knew how to put the genie back in the bottle, I would advocate for it.
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I'd love to be a fly on the wall when a legal team responsible for supporting this narrative has to tackle the issue of regulating the platforms as a public utility, but not the Internet providers that carry them.
There have been people making these arguments both for and against for a very long time. Even as an example, on this very site:
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
I think you'll quickly lean in the opposing view after reviewing those viewpoints, because if Twitter was a utility it would have been declared one at some point in the previous 11 years.
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A number of countries are directly demanding they remove content that is considered "terrorist" or in some way an incitement to violence. Realistically, they have no choice but to have policies that forbid any such content on the platform.
France, for example, recently passed a law demanding that various illegal content be removed in 1 hour or 24 hours, or face enormous fines: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52664609
Where did Twitter represent itself as a company with progressive values?
They fucked this up so badly.
They could have just banned him and said "It's a free country and they felt like it."
Instead they're trying to high-road, and it's.. such a mistake.
The high-road leads to where we actually want to be.
I was thinking about what you said in the other thread about trolls, and I think you're off-base. Trolls aren't zen master ego busters, they're the self-hating jerks they seem to be. The "zen master ego buster" story is just another layer of the ego trip.
The high-road leads to Trump agreeing with you that we need to prevent the spread of fake news to protect society. Then, as the duly elected leader sworn to protect society, he takes on that solemn duty and tasks the agency he controls, the FCC (the entity usually tasked with controlling media content), to make sure that all fake news and entities peddling fake news are permanently squashed so that they will not interfere in the upcoming election.
EDIT: and as if to prove the point, I've been trolled by someone who really doesn't want a race to the top, they just want to have the same easy answer that everyone who ever grew up in the blue would have. I said more words, you said less. Congratulations on your victory my fellow piece of shit.
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Only the inwardly good ones are zen master ego busters. Everyone is a self-hating jerk sometimes. I don't think that's a great label for trolls anyways. Saying they all hate themselves is more masturbatory than true.
> The high-road leads to where we actually want to be.
Absolutely agree. What I'm doing right now is high-roading about the paradoxical nature of high-roading a troll. In this circumstance, the true high-road is the low-road, and the true low-road is the high-road. I'm saying you're low-roading by thinking something that obviously has not worked is suddenly going to start. You're taking an irrational but popular position. You'll win, but be wrong: low-roading.
All of the problems currently most difficult are ones which our intuition inherently fails at, this being one. Similarly, most heroes journeys end where they began just with a better perspective. Similarly, the easiest answer is often the best, but it usually takes trying everything else to understand why. These long-arc experience-driven positions are hard to achieve, and hard to understand, but correct: high-roading.
Right now is one of those cases where we have to re-learn tactics that seem savage, but with the benefit of knowing savagery is context sensitive.
In this battle there's a side that cares about being right, and there's a side that cares about winning. Trumps side can literally physically kick the asses of the side that cares about being right. Not only that, but they've got trolls that can get under their skin and make Liberals pout, and whine, and cry.
Liberals are largely more rational/correct about most things.
Personally, I believe that true leaders should be able to win a race to either bottom or top. They should be able to beat others physically, rationally, and emotionally. Trying to do this "fact-check" stuff is just liberals patting themselves on the back for being justifiably more rational. But that's not what matters now. What matters is that liberals should be better at trolling, and better at fist fighting because that is the only dominance that will create the change this world legitimately needs.
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In conclusion, just ban the POTUS and say it was for the lulz. As long as everyone knows you're not actually that dumb, it's the best possible strategy for dealing with trolls.
It's a risk. It's not a mistake. I appreciate they are trying to thread a very difficult needle. I'd argue democracy's continued survival is predicated on being able to both have a flattened playing field where every voice is accessible and like-minded people can find each other easily (what the Internet has enabled so far), and a way of inoculating people against lies intended for malicious manipulation (which the Internet has also enabled). Getting there, if we can, will be messy and ugly. Failing will be fatal to the idea that people can effectively self-govern.
We'll, they're certainly escalating. I don't think that Trump actually wants to shut Twitter down, nor does he want to get banned there. The banning would rile up his base, but it would do so at the expense of his primary channel of communication. This action puts the ball back in Trump's court and asks him how far he wants to actually go.
let the white house spin up its own activitypub instance, then.
shouldn't public communications occur on public infrastructure?
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Fact-checking obvious lies is a "progressive value"? Wow, that really shows how bad things have gotten.
It has as least as much to do with not fact-checking the claims of people you agree with. Politics is replete with lies. Remember "all 17 intelligence agencies"?
The idea of neutral just-calling-balls-and-strikes fact-checking in politics is a fantasy. The only thing that actually works is debate.
By choosing what to fact-check you can make any agenda. In practical terms there really isn't an "objective truth discoverable by journalism".
I'm pro slander tho, twitter should be able to pin a tweet in every account saying trump has small hands. Americans in general don't see how great chicanery is for a country.
If the lies are obvious, why do they need "fact checking"?
Because, for better or worse, the sources of truth that normal people historically relied on for their barometer of what is true or not have been democratized by the internet.
We live in a world where a substantial number of people believe the earth is flat, that 5G cellular is a mind control scheme, that vaccines cause autism, that COVID-19 was created by a political party, that the concept of climate change is manufactured, or that major national crises are actually just actors being paid to further a political narrative.
Most of these ideas aren't new, but in decades past you might have heard about them from a conspiracy-therorist neighbor, a low profile website, or an alternative magazine with little reputation of its own.
Now, these ideas are spread on the exact same platforms as objectively truthful / scientifically sound media. Your Youtube conspiracy theory channel is right next to the BBC's videos. Your viral Facebook post could be from the New York Times, or it might be from a propaganda organization - or worse, an account that looks like a normal person but which was specifically created to spread misinformation that seems plausibly truthful.
Credibility is distributed and anyone can publish to a huge audience, which is wonderful sometimes, and othertimes deeply problematic, because the viewer often doesn't know enough to distinguish fact from fiction and can't trust the publisher at face value anymore.
Its uncharted territory. The cost to distribute is zero, and ideas spread far and wide - but that means that there are equally as many incredible sources on any given topic as credible ones, and telling the difference is hard, and sometimes not knowing the difference is dangerous. Dunning-Kruger writ large.
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Because some people can't think for themselves, unfortunately.
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Because people don't engage in critical thinking and many are predisposed to consider statements made by people in positions of high authority as fact.
Very few statements are entirely true or entirely false. So let's not pretend like "fact-checking" is an ideal.
Whoever is doing the "fact-checking" wields great power that can very easily be abused or subverted, similar to the ministry of truth in 1984. This is what people are concerned about.
And while that is clearly an extreme, even a small bias in the fact-check is greatly amplified given the number of users on Twitter/Facebook/etc.
Mail-in ballots have been linked to voting fraud in the past. See the 2017 Dallas City Council and the 2018 North Carolina congressional race for example.
Maybe if twitter wants to start fact-checking Trump, don't start with him tweeting that water is wet.
> utilities
It's natural monopoly and highly regulated.
> online hosting
There was several hoster that ban pornography and white supremacist hosting content.
> financial providers
Templeton fired the lady that was choking her dog while calling the police because an African American man was bird watching. He also asked her to leash her dog.
It's a private company. I don't believe Trump is under a protected class to get special perks.