Comment by darepublic
5 years ago
As someone of mixed ethnicity who, if I was there could easily be victimized by a senseless mob to whom I owe nothing and have committed no crime against.. yea I am not happy with how the mainstream media promotes and covers this story, downplaying the victims of the chaos and sympathizing with outpourings of anger even if illegal. To clarify, looters should not be shot, law should prevail, and the policeman involved in the original incident should be investigated.. but the mainstream media is to my mind basically behind the looters, and I know if by chance I or someone like me were to be caught in the crossfire and killed, the mainstream media, posturing as champions of justice, would just implicitly shrug. So yea I can't help but feel disaffected by this coverage, no matter how vile the originating incident.
Relevant: https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/28/us/la-riots-korean-americans/...
> The Rodney King verdict and the ensuing riots are often framed as a turning point for law enforcement and the African-American community. But it's also the single most significant modern event for Korean-Americans, says Edward Taehan Chang, professor of ethnic studies and founding director of the Young Oak Kim Center for Korean American Studies at the University of California, Riverside.
> The nearly weeklong, widespread rioting killed more than 50 people, injured more than 1,000 people and caused approximately $1 billion in damage, about half of which was sustained by Korean-owned businesses. Long-simmering cultural clashes between immigrant Korean business owners and predominately African-American customers spilled over with the acquittals.
I'm on the side of the protesters here, don't get me wrong. But the media sweeps under the rug how often the rage from these events gets taken out on Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc.-owned small businesses. There is a narrative the media wants to peddle (black versus white), and these complexities don't have any place in the media narratives.
A fair amount of this is caused by the state and police. Why do you think that the rioters were in koreatown during the rodney king riots?
Police defended the rich neighborhoods and pushed the riot into places where society tolerates more damage.
Did the police burn down and destroy $1B of property?
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> these complexities don't have any place in the media narratives
I'm reminded of the film "Do the Right Thing", by Spike Lee. 1989. Not much has changed in America.
This movement is about centuries of unjustness. To me, it is appropriate that the occasional bystander and business is overlooked. That doesn't mean that if you were my sibling, or friend, or business that I wouldn't be entitled to express personal pain. But the magnitude of my pain is nothing next to the pain that's led up to this, and no it wouldn't be appropriate for it to get remotely equal attention.
Sure, ideally bystanders and local businesses (in particular) would be spared. But nothing about the historical events leading to now is ideal.
Where was this movement when Justine Damond was shot in the gut by a black cop in Minneapolis? I don't recall any protests, let alone riots or burning down the city.
And if your expression of pain includes looting booze from a liquor store or a TV from Target, what exactly are you trying to say? By the way, those bystanders and local businesses owners are people of color too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Justine_Damond
> Noor was ultimately arrested and charged with second-degree manslaughter and third-degree murder following an eight-month investigation by the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension and the Hennepin County Attorney's Office. In April 2019, Noor was convicted of third-degree murder and manslaughter, but acquitted of intentional second-degree murder. In June 2019, Noor was sentenced to 12.5 years in prison.
It seems like the system ended up working to a degree, at least putting the murderer behind bars. So why would one expect significant protests?
The outrage in these cases isn't over a white cop killing a black person per se, it's that the system immediately moves to protect the murderers because they're cops. Rather than arresting the criminal, fellow corrupt cops were stationed outside of his house to protect him. That the main perp has finally been charged is a product of the protests rather than the justice system moving slowly - witness that the conspirators have yet to be charged. Anyone who believes in law and order should be sympathetic to the protestors, even in spite of race.
Furthermore, ascribing the motives of a few looters onto the whole protest is ridiculous. Especially as at least some of that destruction was led by agents provocateurs.
That shooting was an isolated incident, and someone actually went to jail for it, for a long time. That doesn't happen when a white cop shoots a black person.
That shooting wasn't part of a system of institutional and deep rooted racism. Neither was it part of a system where white cops routinely harass black people with no basis other than the colour of their skin; where white cops use horrifyingly excessive violence and all too often murder black suspects, bystanders and innocents - a system where the perpetrators of that violence and murder are almost guaranteed to face no repercusions at all. A system of ingrained inquality that spans decades.
Black people are harassed, racially abused, set upon and shot frequently by white cops in the USA - and the videos we see pretty much on a daily basis in the news and on twitter are only the tip of the iceberg.
As someone in the UK, the the inequality and racism that still exists in the USA, "land of the free", is mind boggling, sickening even. Something has to change, so yes, I can fully understand protests and rioting.
And justice was done in that case. In the next Minneapolis case, Philando Castile, a black man, it wasn't.
Again, the rioting isn't a good thing, but it's understandable.
Unfortunately, both you, the media, and the looters keep forgetting the events are, as you said, history.
> Unfortunately, both you, the media, and the looters keep forgetting the events are, as you said, history.
But history can be important. Literally everything that's known and has been done is now history, including recently committed crimes.
The history that we're talking about still has clearly identifiable painful consequences in present-day communities, so it's not something that can just be filed away and ignored as no longer relevant.
What does "history" mean? The suffering of innocent bystanders in past riots is history. In a year the innocent bystanders of these riots will be "only history".
Many of the immigrants who have created new businesses in the US have experienced terrible histories themselves, but they have been able to put these behind them, because their antagonists are not in the US.
I don't think historic injustices should be simply ignored, but the problem is even more severe when the systemic abuses your community is experiencing is not only in the past, not only occurring in the moment, but there is realistic prospect that conditions will to improve.
Private companies militarizing police forces never face liability, and sworn, armed officers belong to unions, and neither of those seems on a course to changing.
It is a completely untenable situation for American citizens to be extra-judiciously killed by government employees. Rioting doesn't help, peaceful protests don't help, you can't even respectfully kneel during the national anthem without being treated as though you're rejecting everything about the country. Petitions? Hunger strikes? Self-immolation?
If it were purely history, we wouldn’t be seeing the violence, injustice, and disparity we see today. The problem is that isn’t “history”, it’s ongoing.
It's history and it's the present. You sound like the people who claim racism must be over since Obama was elected.
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Until it happens again, and again, and again, and again....
It could have all been ended before the rioting started if the police officer was charged for his actions. Obviously looting is wrong but peaceful protests obviously aren't working either.
They were fired and will face the justice system, which while it normally moves slowly, will move a little faster in this case thanks to top down pressure.
I don't see how in a country with independent judiciary anything more can be done.
> They were fired and will face the justice system
If I shot someone on video[0], I would be charged with a crime, likely homicide, that day and in jail until a bail hearing. At which point I might have the option to leave jail until my trial.
In this case the officer was arrested 3 days later (about an hour ago at time of writing), and only due to pressure from both citizens and politicians. Without that, it may have taken longer to charge him, or he may not have been charged at all, just like the other multiple times this officer killed someone.
That's a double standard. The police should serve the people, not be above them or immune to oversight.
[0]: A white person, if I shot a black person, the DA's office might try to cover it up and I'd only get arrested a month later after protests: https://www.nytimes.com/article/ahmaud-arbery-shooting-georg...
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How fast would the justice system have moved if it was a black person killing a cop as opposed to a cop killing a black person?
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How are you so sure?
They were already evading justice before the video came out (the internal police analysis was obviously false). Pantaleo was never charged for Garner's death. In other cases we have seen video evidence excluded from trial and officers walk.
I'm not remotely confident that this will lead to convictions.
Update, the cop was just charged with third degree murder and manslaughter. They could have acted faster, but at least they're acting. I hope they make an example of the guy, but I have my doubts seeing how other similar situations went at trial.
It could have all been ended when the bystander peacefully asked the police to stop putting the knee on Floyd's neck. Obviously violence is never the answer, but it's hardly surprising in this case.
He and his colleagues were immediately fired and he has since been charged for his actions. It hasn't even been a week, what more do you want?
edit: s/charged/arrested
It should be noted that the police arrested a journalist from CNN faster than they arrested the guilty officer.
He's been arrested after 3 days of rioting. I'd like to see the other 3 arrested as well, since they're accessories.
Oh, and I want a perp walk. All the usual stuff that happens to other people. And then it's time to talk about the doctrine of qualified immunity and a whole lot of other things.
That's not correct, none of the four officers involved have been charged yet.
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This is a nation wide issue and has been for centuries
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You are enabling a fascist government. You are complicit.
This is the strategy to vilify any movements from the people: focus on how they are acting violent, when this violence is very well in proportion to the enemy’s first move.
How is looting innocent shop owners in proportion to the wrongdoings of the police force?
And if this 'an eye for an eye' philosophy is what you are promoting, how is Trump's tweet then out of place?
Property damage < loss of human life
I know this may be a difficult thing to accept for some people on this site, since it is at its core a tech investment site, but no amount of financial damage would be "proportional" to systemic excusal of murder.
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How was the looting of innocent tea merchants in proportion to the wrongdoings of George III's soldiers?
Stop equating property with life. They're not the same. They're not even close.
https://www.startribune.com/let-my-building-burn-minneapolis...:
> A restaurant caught in the crossfire of unrest in Minneapolis Thursday night has sent a powerful message to its followers on social media: “Let my building burn.”
https://www.facebook.com/111805205582613/posts/3030378453725...:
> Sadly Gandhi Mahal has caught fire and has been damaged....Don’t worry about us, we will rebuild and we will recover. This is Hafsa, Ruhel’s daughter writing, as I am sitting next to my dad watching the news, I hear him say on the phone; “ let my building burn, Justice needs to be served, put those officers in jail”. Gandhi Mahal May have felt the flames last night, but our firey drive to help protect and stand with our community will never die! Peace be with everyone.
Sure, but ideally the function of the state is prevent the formation of senseless mobs through even-handed treatment and a well-functioning justice system. When it fails to meet those expectations, people turn to other means to defend themselves and enact retribution.
This is human nature and the entire story of our history. Aeschylus even wrote about it:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia
I think there is an issue where a minority of people live very sheltered lives in the kind embrace of the state, so they have a very difficult time accepting that actually, the experience is shit for a wide swath of other people who have the same right to be protected.
> if I was there could easily be victimized by a senseless mob
Your comment is what is senseless fear. Protesters are not attacking random people, no matter what your ethnicity.
the policeman involved in the original incident should be investigated
Oh give it a rest. We saw him kill the man, he can sit a cell and prepare for his trial like any other killer. If you don't like what people int he media say find different commentators or stop listening to pundits altogether.
I am sick to the back teeth of people complaining about 'the mainstream media', when Fox News and Sinclair broadcasting are two of the biggest companies in TV.
> Oh give it a rest. We saw him kill the man, he can sit a cell and prepare for his trial like any other killer.
He can sit in a cell while being investigated. The fact that it is all on camera just makes it a quick investigation. But everyone gets due process. (also EVERYONE there needs to be investigated, not just the killer)
The investigation lead to an arrest today. That's how the system works. And it worked in this case.
Where was your rage for Justine Damond? Shot by Officer Mohamed Noor from the passenger seat of his police cruiser, across his partner. Where were the riots?
Also, when people complain about MSM they are including Fox and Sinclair. It's all corrupted and meant to drive a narrative instead of presenting objective views from both sides. It's not up to MSM to tell us how to think about events. Their job is to report the facts. Hardly any of them do anymore, if they ever did.
It's amazing to me how the system can send 4 cops to take someone into custody immediately over an alleged passing of a fake $20 bill, but when there's video of a homicide taking place despite the pleas of the victim and the intervention of bystanders, and more video shows that the initial report submitted by the cops in question was a lie, everything has to slow right down while we wring our hands over the rights of the cops.
Also, when people complain about MSM they are including Fox and Sinclair.
Please don't insult my intelligence again.
First time hearing about Justine Damond.. But black officer goes to jail and white family gets 20 MILLION dollars... Maybe it's media bias but in a sick way that seems to underline bias in the system.
>looters should not be shot, law should prevail
That is literally the law of the land. Read into castle doctrine and duty to retreat. Business owners have the legal right to defend their life on their property with deadly force if left no choice (i.e. a mob has surrounded you)
At any rate his tweet was ambiguous, he could have meant shooting naturally follows looting, not that he was ordering the guard to execute civilians.
This entire event is effectively self-defense from a community that has felt terrorized by the police for decades.
It could've been easily prevented by actually arresting someone that committed abject murder, but the city and the police chose to instead defend a man who has killed multiple people in the past and got away with it scott-free. So when people feel like justice no longer exists, there should be no surprise that they get angry.
It doesn't help that the police also employ agent provocateurs whom help incite riots and looting so that they can use more violent tactics with glee.
Could it have? I don't know. What is encouraging is that in the past they would have put the officers on paid leave and treated them with deference while the investigation took place. In this case they were promptly fired within 48 hours of the incident by the police chief.
There were also a lot of statements from police leadership that this incident wasn't acceptable or normal police procedure which is a drastic change from in the past where you had people staying silent or even defending and rationalizing the perpetrators actions.
The looting and rioting weaken a cause that after many years of being in the spotlight seemed to have reached a tipping point of overwhelming agreement.
> So when people feel like justice no longer exists, there should be no surprise that they get angry.
I think this is the key here. The whole BLM movement has been going on for years and, for the most part, it seems like a lot of people are more aware. It doesn't seem like anybody from the top cares to do anything about it though.
I'd like to say, as well, that this is a statement of fact that can be observed by looking at media coverage, testimonial, historical and fictional books on the topic of the black experience in america. To deny this is a direct attempt to re-write history to justify an accumulation of power amongst the hands of a specific, ever-shrinking elite.
Things are, ultimately, knowable. Its not "political" or up to "opinion".
Looting private businesses and setting fires isn’t “self-defense”.
It's drawing worldwide attention to the issue of systemic racism across the police force in the USA though, isn't it?
What else do you think might get this kind of attention? Fact is, incidents like this have been happening for a long, long time, yet nothing changes.
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Military theorists disagree.
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An organism that is attacked can self defend in impredictible ways, there will be collaterals.
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> This entire event is effectively self-defense from a community that has felt terrorized by the police for decades.
To put it with MLK: A riot is the voice of the unheard.
The systemic issues of the Black (and other foreigner) community across the Western societies, especially with police and laws specifically designed to target them (e.g. almost all drug legislation), have been ignored for way too long. I'm no friend of rioting myself but I will not judge upon those who have deemed it necessary to be finally heard.
> It could've been easily prevented by actually arresting someone that committed abject murder, but the city and the police chose to instead defend a man who has killed multiple people in the past and got away with it scott-free
I don't know if it could have been prevented by arresting just this murderer, as it's far from an isolated incident.
I do however think it could have been prevented by an edict from the top years ago, issuing a zero-tolerance policy for harassment, abuse and murder by police officers, with focus on clearly racially motivated incidents. I'm fom the UK, so don't claim to understand american politics, but I just don't understand why something like that hasn't happened, especially when Obama was president.
Your first claim is that the entire event is community self-defense, and your last claim is that police agents are responsible for the unrest.
You are totally right.
Not even close, but keep telling yourself whatevwr you need to to justify violent riots and indiscriminate looting. Never seen an HD TV looted in self defense before, but hey the media owned by God's Chosen People trying to use blacks as violent foot soldiers for marxism is just a conspiracy pushed by bigots and idiots, right?
I really hope you don't work with any non-white or Jewish people.
>the media owned by God's Chosen People trying to use blacks as violent foot soldiers for marxism
Wow, what an incredibly enlightened viewpoint, thanks for sharing. Curious to hear your thoughts on the Boston Tea Party.
Yes, one only need to compare the police treatment of predominantly white, armed brigades storming government buildings in Michigan to what happened to the first wave of predominantly black, non-violent protests in Minneapolis to understand there are other forces at play here.
Or Oregon, where they took over a government facility, barricaded themselves in there, started armed patrols, fortifying and securing themselves in there...
... and were left alone for weeks, or more. Given some slaps on the wrist. And the tax payer footed the bill for the cleanup.