Comment by Valgrim
5 years ago
It is bad because the value of human life (even people you don't like) is infinitely greater than material goods. A looted store can be repared, restocked, rebuilt. A dead human stays dead forever and yields a mountain of grief around him. They are not comparable at all.
> It is bad because the value of human life (even people you don't like) is infinitely greater than material goods
The human life of the people looting your property is more important than the well-being of you and your family who will be in debt after that, I see.
Regardless, this seems to be your personal value, something that I (and most people that I know) do not seem to share - even the US constitution and laws do not seem to share it, after all it is legal to shoot someone invading your home. I have no grief to give to someone who died while trying to invade my home and loot my property. They are dead due to their own choices.
> A looted store can be repared, restocked, rebuilt
For free? It can be a lifetime's worth for some. Are you willing to pay it out of your own pockets? If there were enough people willing to do so I would support your statement, but that does not seem to be the case.
> The human life of the people looting your property is more important than the well-being of you and your family who will be in debt after that, I see.
Your argument here seems to be that human life is worth less that the value of looted goods. So, if someone looted a TV, you think their life holds less value than a TV?
I want to interpret your reply charitably, but I’m really struggling with this sentence.
The answer seems self evident: Yes. Obviously. Without a doubt of course a human life (even a life that is doing something like looting) is worth more than the value of what it’s carrying.
Should we stop someone looting things? Yes. Should we kill them just over the theft? No, of course not.
Having been around that culture quite a bit, I think it's safe to say that quite a few people believe that yes, personal property has enough of a sanctity/value that it's worth capital punishment to enforce that as a societal norm.
The logical hole in this is that when one traces back "why" personal property has such a high value, the only source of its value comes back to it being thought of as an inseparable part of the life-experience of the person who owns it. To contrive an example, let's say someone's a pre-computer author (i.e. before easily duplicable backups), writing one of those life's-work novels, and they have a single copy of the manuscript of their magnum opus - to threaten to destroy the manuscript is to threaten their life's work; to threaten everything they poured their life's passion and effort into. It's conceivable that to destroy it might literally kill them by driving them to suicide.
But that's exactly the hole in the logic: at it's most extreme where property really is equatable with the value of a human life, the only thing that gives this property any absolute moral value is the value of the human life and passion that went into building it. If you've then got a conflict between "a holder of property" and "someone who wants to destroy that property", really it's just a threat on your "life".
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One is then simply asking a question of whether it's justified to take another person's life to protect your own.
Most secular ethics frameworks say no; christianity and buddhism repeatedly and explicitly say no, over and over again, including direct quotes from christ himself.
> Your argument here seems to be that human life is worth less that the value of looted goods
I do not subscribe to the notion of universal value. I do think however that for someone the value of looted goods can be greater than the random person who looted them, surely you must also agree with this.
Anyway, looting has effects in the real world too, it is not only "oh no, I lost some value", it is "they looted my shop so my family might go hungry".
> Should we stop someone looting things? Yes. Should we kill them just over the theft? No, of course not.
If we have the option to stop them (along with the rest of the looters) without killing them then sure.
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If your entire store gets looted or burned down, completely eviscerating your livelihood (potentially leading to homelessness for you and your family) or threatening your well being and safety then it's probably not about one guy carrying a TV.
First, looting doesn't imply imminent harm or threat to someone. Majority of looting involves destruction of property but not harm or death to people. If you think someone should be shot because they stole / destroyed some property, then I don't know what to tell you.
Second, we're not talking about individuals protecting themselves or their property. We're talking about the police / military shooting looters, and again not specifically in protecting themselves or others from harm.
Third, this is calling for summary judgement and execution without trial. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
> looting doesn't imply imminent harm or threat to someone
Sure it does. If it did not everyone owning property would go to the entrance and physically block it. In addition it implies imminent threat to the well-being of these that have their property taken away from them.
> If you think someone should be shot because they stole / destroyed some property
Under normal conditions I would support shooting them only if it is the only/safest way to stop them (either from committing the act or from running away).
> Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
Except the ones that are shoot while they are looting are provably guilty.
Are you against the police shooting someone that threatens the life of an innocent?
Edit:
> We're talking about the police / military shooting looters
You pay your taxes so that the police / military protect you and your property.
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