Comment by est31
6 years ago
iMessage motivates people to people buy iPhones instead of Android when everyone else in a social circle has it. Why should Apple give up on that? What will Apple gain from making it ubiquitous? It would in fact disappoint many people as now they can't use their phone to distance themselves from the people who don't have that blue circle.
Note that I'm arguing from Apple's perspective here. From my own I believe they should absolutely open it up.
> iMessage motivates people to people buy iPhones instead of Android
Why, though? Does your average iPhone user actually care if the bubbles they see in their chats are blue or green? If so, why?
Note that I'm talking about average users. Sure, there are likely a bunch of privacy-conscious users who believe in Apple's commitment to security and privacy and prefer iMessage on those grounds. But otherwise, why?
> It would in fact disappoint many people as now they can't use their phone to distance themselves from the people who don't have that blue circle.
If that's truly the case, I don't think I'd want to be friends with people who place importance on such superficial, trivial things.
Full disclosure: I've been an Android user for 10 years and the closest I ever got to owning an iPhone was an iPod Touch I stopped using in 2012 or so. SMS is fine for my needs most of the time, though MMS for group texting is ridiculously unreliable so I try to funnel people to Signal or WhatsApp for those use-cases.
I guess I just don't see a closed iMessage as that huge of a competitive advantage for Apple. But presumably they know better as to what drives sales.
> Why, though? Does your average iPhone user actually care if the bubbles they see in their chats are blue or green? If so, why?
They definitely do. Not sure what your age or demographic is, but young folks do care a lot about higher social status which is tied to blue bubble because of iPhone prices. It has nothing to do with privacy though.
I'm 22 and live in a mid-sized city, and I've seen people trying to get into a relationship (or even something more casual, but not a platonic friendship) get rejected because of the dreaded "green bubbles" - and really, I'm not exaggerating. And not from rich people who have the latest iPhone either.
In addition, I have been in friend groups that would exclude Android users because if you have even 1 Android user in a group chat on iMessage, you lose tons of features, like the ability to name the group chat (I'm being completely serious here; this was considered an important thing). The work around was "we'll take you out of this chat, and if something important happens someone will send you a text" - of course, it's not very easy to always remember to send that person an SMS, so they end up _very_ left out of things. This has also happened with middle-class people.
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They care because the green bubbles indicate a severely impaired user experience. For example, multimedia may not work, and even if it does, its typically very poor quality.
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People definitely do.
The worst part is, an excellent upgrade exists. The RCS experience between Android users is pretty much as good as iMessage. Apple could support this; not to replace iMessage, but to upgrade SMS conversations. My tech-illiterate mom's Galaxy S negative 12 has it. Of my contacts, every single Android user I text (maybe a dozen) has RCS. Its standard.
When I put my iPhone XS and my S20 Plus side-by-side; chatting with Android users using rich text via RCS; animations at 120hz on a display so blindingly bright the brightness slider turns red at the end; so seamless with the device's edges its like looking through a portal; unlocking with a sonic sub-pixel fingerprint reader; swiping notifications away at a rate the iPhone can't approach; charging my computer keyboard, mouse, phone, laptop, and smartwatch with the same cable... I've religiously used both iPhone and Android, I switch every year, and the iPhone feels like its years behind Samsung right now. Its not close.
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You know, for a tech site, people sure do love to forget that iMessage is preferred because it brings features instead of mere social status.
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It’s a bit more than that though - try to send a picture to an Android user. It will work sometimes. Sometimes it won’t. No rhyme or reason and no way to control it. Send a picture to another iPhone - works exactly as expected every time.
It’s not just social status. It works much much better than SMS, it’s a superior experience and interacting with green bubble folk ruins it. I’m not particularly young or concerned at all with social status, but I urge people in my circles to just get iPhones because of iMessage and FaceTime. Both vastly superior experiences to any alternatives available.
Individual SMS is fine. Group SMS stinks. You can’t remove yourself from a conversation unless everyone else moves on to a new thread without you. Also, you don’t get contact names for ad hoc group conversations with new people.
Trying to get people to agree to a proper chat platform is like wrangling cats. If everyone in the group has an iOS device, then there’s no decision to be made.
I’ve never seen people exclude someone with a green bubble from a conversation, but I’ve seen this behavior (use iMessage as a high quality default) in spades.
Definitely people care about blue vs green bubbles. Have you ever tried to send videos back and forth between the two? It looks like it was shot on my old Nokia flip phone in either direction. Plus no "typing" bubble, texts seem to take longer to arrive, group chats are degraded if even one green bubble is included, etc. It sounds like Android has finally caught up with RCS, but iMessage was one of my favorite features when I switched years ago.
MMS and SMS are extremely unreliable, especially if you were out of the coverage area when a message was sent (half the time I only receive some of a conversation and have to try to interpret what happened). RCS is supposed to fix this, but no carrier seems intent on sunsetting SMS to force Apple’s hand. At least with iMessage, I’ll eventually get the message (they’ll hold it server side, encrypted, until I get back online).
I still use SMS a lot, because it’s more important to me that I can talk and send pictures to people than worrying about them being on a certain platform or app (Discord’s notifications aren’t great on mobile if you haven’t opened the app for a while). But it’s super annoying, and if Apple made iMessage an open standard (they probably won’t, since people buy iPhones for it), I think many people on Android would move to it.
You literally answered your own question.
“... though MMS for group texting is ridiculously unreliable so I try to funnel people to Signal.”
Group texting between iPhones just works. Add an Android user to the group and all of the sudden it doesn’t work. Ergo, don’t add them.
I would buy an Android if it weren’t for the social force behind iMessage blue bubbles and the smoothness of FaceTime.
Green bubbles signal low status. It also makes it more difficult to communicate: no read receipts, no live location, photo/video/audio messages are clunky, worse emojis, no reaction option, and so on.
It’s not about Blue/Green bubbles. Everything messes up once you have one person in a group that isn’t on iMessage - including reactions to messages. Instead of getting an icon on top of message you get “John Doe liked ‘We will be there soon’”.
IME there's a loss of a number of features when communicating without someone with "blue bubbles", that you come to take for granted, and that cause a bit of friction when you realize the messages/functionality you took for granted in your exchange aren't there. If I find myself chatting with someone with green bubbles, I find I tend to transition the conversation over to whatsapp.
It's not like a "relationship killer" or something, but I imagine it is a low-level contributor to my lock-in to the platform.
99% of Americans don’t want to be funneled to WhatsApp or signal for group chat. They want it to live right next to their native texts.
Your group is likely different from the mainstream.
Which is why 99% of Americans get a to live in a shitty Nash equilibrium of either being socially ostracised and excluded or being locked into an expensive monopoly of a single smart phone vendor.
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99% is hyperbole based on Android market share in the US.
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I was thinking about moving to Android about three years back. The thing that stopped me from even seriously considering it was iMessage.
Everyone I know uses iMessage. SMS is unreliable, works poorly in group chats, and can't easily be sent/received from my computer.
(I will still eventually need to go to Android because I'm not giving up my headphone jack, but I'll be hanging onto my iPhone 6S for as long as possible.)
iMessage has read receipts, faster and more reliable delivery, higher quality images/videos. More than just the color of the bubble
Looks like you have never used Whatsapp!
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iMessage is a much better user experience. Users associate the blue bubbles with that.
Like pretty much every other messaging app on every phone platform currently existence?
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For me - it's simply a question of reliability. SMS is not reliable in the US, and I live in an area with poor coverage. My preferred mode of communication is texting but SMS is a no-go.
If it’s of any solace, SMS is not reliable anywhere in the world. It may seem reliable sometimes in some places, but that’s mostly a facade.
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They absolutely should care. I’m not adding you to a group text if you have an android. Life is too short to read green text bubbles.
Why don't you use WhatsApp?
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You're a moron, I don't even care about any temp ban for saying that, too. Anyone who thinks like you do is a moron.
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iMessage is ABSOLUTELY brilliant if your family and friends are all on iPhones, which I'm pretty sure is fairly common in most Western countries.
Regardless whether you agree with that, it is super practical for me and my family. It also means we don't have run other chat software like WhatsApp.
The whole experience is just so seamless and well integrated across your devices. Everything from regular messages, voicenotes, sending cute animojis to your wife, or doing a FaceTime with my 102 year old grandmother. I do that on a daily basis. And I can easily continue a conversation from my computer, or even respond from my Apple Watch when exercising.
I am still on WhatsApp though as there are millions of users worldwide, but I keep notifications off and check it only once a day.
> brilliant if your family and friends are all on iPhones, which I'm pretty sure is fairly common in most Western countries
iOS market share is 60% in the US which is the highest worldwide, and only above 50% in a handful of other countries (UK, Japan, Oz, Canada)[0]. If you have any friends who are not rich, or are European or South American, there's a good chance they won't iMessage you but try to add you on WhatsApp.
[0]https://deviceatlas.com/blog/android-v-ios-market-share
>If you have any friends who are not rich, or are European or South American
One: 55-60% market share in the US, by definition, is not confined to "the rich."
As to the other categories: my personal answer to "If you have any friends that aren't American" is "that's what whatsapp is for." I imagine for a lot of people the answer is that, or "I don't, actually."
Like, all the teenagers in my family. Their list of non-US friends is near-zero. Their non-US family are all on whatsapp.
They don't experience a gap.
In my social circle everyone uses something completely different, not just for messaging.
I need all of Threema, Signal, Skype, iMessage and email just for my closest friends and family.
I also need Google Photos, Google Drive and OneDrive to share data with them.
Apple is the most anti-social platform of them all. I can't even use it to share photos with my wife.
I have never used FaceTime with anyone, because no one uses it, not even those who do have iPhones, because they all have to use something else to communicate with others.
> [...] which I'm pretty sure is fairly common in most Western countries.
It's really not, at least in continental Europe. Here in Germany Android's like 70% of the market and nobody uses iMessage or FaceTime.
Even when it's not majority, I agree with sgt that initially the experience was much, much better than with other apps, especially for the older people in my family.
It degraded a bit, however, with the time. Adding features is not to the benefit of the less young, whereas young tolerate UI getting more complex and less intuitive.
Norway is my primary point of reference in this regard.
Only 40% of people have iPhone in the Netherlands, for example. Everyone uses whatsapp.
I have an iPhone. I have a MacBook. I have AirPods. I have the watch. I use a PC for work and am considering moving away from the iPhone because I miss texting on my desktop.
They could bind a windows iMessage install to your iPhone the same way Signal/whatsapp do.
They could bind a windows iMessage install to your iPhone the same way Signal/whatsapp do.
Or make it part of an iCloud subscription.
> What will Apple gain from making it ubiquitous?
Right, I'm trying to understand Apple's motivations, and this question applies not only to iMessage but their general approach regarding macOS, apps, app store, the proprietary/locked-down nature of their software and hardware.
The opposite of ubiquity would be "exclusivity" - and that does explain a lot. The reasoning must be that there is value in making their apps exclusive to their own OS(es). The same way you can't (easily) run macOS on any old PC, or the way their hardware doesn't allow users to repair or extend it.
Does it? iMessage is really US thing. The consequence of this strategy is that no one uses it outside the US. Whatsapp is a lot bigger and the leader in this market. Zero chance that will change because of this strategy.
Yepp. We went through the exact same debate with BBM 10 years ago.
They could offer a proxy service that lets people interact with conversations in a secure way but still keep the bubble green.
I have noticed that many of my iPhone friends start using WhatsApp for group and personal chats as default. I don’t get why. I switch back to iMessage in those cases, which irritates people too. I think iMessage would be way more successful if it was available on other platforms.
You’re absolutely right, that is a large part of why I keep using iOS. It’s also a very common exciting part of switching from android based on my own social circle.
If you have ever talked to an iPhone user, you will know performance, features, and quality are the last things on their mind.
The phone must be pretty and have the Apple logo on it. They might repeat the marketing about privacy and security, but if the person actually cared about either, you'd never use Apple products.
Maybe the marketing and “coolness” is what initially attracts them but once they try it they stay because of the user experience.
I had a non-technical friend with an Android phone (full of malware btw). She didn’t care about Apple, never used any of their products nor need it for the “social status” or anything (her friends are all on WhatsApp so no issues with iMessage). I gave her an old iPhone 7 to try out, a couple weeks later she would never consider going back to Android ever.
I had an iPhone for work and it basically solidified the fact that Apple products are low quality.
I didn't see any benefits at all. Only annoyances.
I don't actually believe your story the way you told it. Was her Android a 50 dollar piece of Chinese junk or Samsung? Only way I could believe it.
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Can you name a single android phone that is superior in performance with last year’s iPhone? Can you name an android phone that will be stable and up-to-date 5 years after it was released?
Do Pixel count? But I'm anti Google now, I have not researched in a few years.
Apple slows down old phones, no one gives 5 years of support.
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> Can you name an android phone that will be stable and up-to-date 5 years after it was released?
Any that can be rooted
Hi, I have an iPhone and part of the reason I bought it for those reasons. I also happen to care a bit about privacy and security :)
Red flag here. You should take a marketing class.
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> They might repeat the marketing about privacy and security, but if the person actually cared about either, you'd never use Apple products.
If I cared about security, you’re saying the phone that the FBI famously had trouble breaking into is a bad choice?
If I cared about privacy, you’re saying I should prefer Android — an operating system made by the literal inventor of surveillance capitalism?
They did break into the phone. So Apple completely failed.
Weird narrative here.
Why would anyone want to buy an iPhone because of iMessage. It doesn't do anything special
Network effects. All your friends are using iMessage.
This is mostly a US phenomenon because in other countries people had already adopted other messaging apps due to higher text messaging costs and for free international voice/video calls
The features aren’t special by themselves. It’s the features combined with the fact it’s the default SMS/chat client on a huge portion of the smartphones market.
It’s a social product. You can’t discount its social appeal.
Because tying your company to one product is an economic disaster. It's very clear that drop in iPhone sales causes a very direct impact on Apple and the reason why they started moving towards SaaS model. But their SaaS isn't big enough yet. If today China retaliates with ban on Apple, the company is pretty much dead because no other country is capable of manufacturing at the scale Apple needs it to.
According to their last earnings - 50% of their revenue was outside of the iPhone.
You also have to remember even the Mac by itself brought in higher revenue than all but the top 100 companies in the US and it’s only 10% of Apple’s revenue. The watch is a bigger revenue generator than the iPod ever was.
The Apple watch, Airpods and everything else except Macs are tightly coupled to the sale of iPhones. If you stop making iPhones, the rest is pretty much dead too.
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