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Comment by ojnabieoot

5 years ago

I hate this headline but the project is very cool. People like me who were ignorant should start here instead of the Github to get a better sense of the design goals (and why they are using Forth): https://collapseos.org/forth.html

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ojnabieoot

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MaxBarraclough  5 years ago

I've read that page and I'm still wondering why they're using FORTH.

C has excellent portability and performance. The article agrees with the general consensus that C is also generally a better language for the programmer. So why use FORTH? What does it matter that it can do cute things with self-hosting? What does 'compactness' matter?

If the goal is to build a portable means of writing programs for Z80 and AVR, why not develop a C-like language, or an IR, or put work into developing a serious optimising C compiler targeting the Z80? I get the impression that's a relatively unexplored area for (rather niche) compiler research.

  • zentiggr  5 years ago

    The rest of the storyline of this page covers what I think is the core concept that Chuck Moore started from, and defines Forth as its own environment: the core of the language that needs to be defined in order to write and execute Forth words is surprisingly small. Once you have the core words in place, you can layer on exactly the constructs you need.

    I won't claim to be a proficient Forth author, but I've used it to accomplish a couple of rather odd one-off projects, and it is amazing how much you can do, as long as you're not expecting graphics or networking or huge storage needs.

    Compactness matters because when you're trying to bootstrap into a tiny (or hacked together custom build) environment, the tiny bootstrap footprint means you can be up and rolling that much faster.

    C is all good, I've been writing it for a long time, but I'd much rather get a Forth core going in raw assembly than even a stripped down to brass tacks C compiler.

    • MaxBarraclough  5 years ago

      Seems like an IR would make sense here. Perhaps a stack-based one. If you need a compact program representation, that doesn't mean you have to use FORTH as your source language.

      7 replies →

  • RodgerTheGreat  5 years ago

    You're describing a hypothetical piece of software that would be easily two or three orders of magnitude more complex than the current Forth, and potentially be entirely unfeasible to run on a resource-constrained 8-bit system. Self-hosting isn't a cute trick, either- it's a functional requirement.

    Forth makes bootstrapping and cross-compilation a straightforward exercise. C provides no help whatsoever until you've climbed to the top of a mountain of abstraction.

  • naasking  5 years ago

    > What does 'compactness' matter?

    Because after the end of civilization, you may be inputting your first programs on punch cards or something similar, and your system's memory capacity might be measured in a few kilobytes, not gigabytes. Compactness is a huge deal in this context.