Comment by joshuamorton
5 years ago
"Women" is not a sex.
You don't see people saying "trans women are biologically female" for a reason.
5 years ago
"Women" is not a sex.
You don't see people saying "trans women are biologically female" for a reason.
I see people say many things, not all of them make sense or appear consistent to me, which is why I am asking questions.
I appreciate the answer. Are there situations where those of the female sex as a group have a legitimate special interest that does not include trans women?
> Are there situations where those of the female sex as a group
Obviously: medical stuff. The needs of trans women and cis women are not aligned when issues of sexual health come up. Trans women don't have uteruses, for example, and healthcare for trans women differs greatly from assigned-female-at-birth people. Here, the interests of trans women, AFAB women, trans men and AMAB men are all somewhat unique. Note further that in this situation men (specifically trans-men) and AFAB women can have significant overlaps in needs.
Do you mean more in social spaces, where women as a group are interacting as women and not as females? Because as a society we don't often differentiate between female and women's spaces, and in general we seem to apply the label "female" to many things that are really "women's".
Offhand, I can't think of many social spaces where women interact as females, and not just as women. Perhaps spaces devoted to motherhood? As for the women's spaces, those being trans exclusionary is, imo questionable in most cases. Although I did see a trans person I know recently point out that they are able to relate with trans women's experiences often more deeply than with cis women's, so the reverse would also likely be true.
As for your other question:
> I should add, I see people use the phrase "assigned male/female". Which seems odd to me if sex is a biological construct rather than a social construct. It seems the correct phrase would be "assigned man/woman". Is there something I am missing?
I agree the terminology here is weird. But implicit in your framing is that someone is assigned a gender based on their sex. One is not assigned "man/woman" at all. Or, insofar as a trans woman is AMAB, they were also assigned woman at birth (but this assignment is mental), that's why they chose to transition their appearance, to better align with their gender.
I'm not an expert, but my guess is that the "assigned" framing is a way to help distance the person from an aspect of themselves that can cause dysphoria. If you see yourself as a woman, you might strongly prefer to be biologically female, but you can't be. Framing this as something you were assigned helps to address that.
Really appreciate the thoughtful response.
> Obviously: medical stuff. The needs of trans women and cis women are not aligned when issues of sexual health come up. Trans women don't have uteruses, for example, and healthcare for trans women differs greatly from assigned-female-at-birth people. Here, the interests of trans women, AFAB women, trans men and AMAB men are all somewhat unique. Note further that in this situation men (specifically trans-men) and AFAB women can have significant overlaps in needs.
That makes sense.
> Do you mean more in social spaces, where women as a group are interacting as women and not as females? Because as a society we don't often differentiate between female and women's spaces, and in general we seem to apply the label "female" to many things that are really "women's".
> Offhand, I can't think of many social spaces where women interact as females, and not just as women. Perhaps spaces devoted to motherhood? As for the women's spaces, those being trans exclusionary is, imo questionable in most cases
A nursing mother's room does seems like it would be fairly uncontroversial. But if a majority of females would prefer to have a female only space for something else (bathroom, gym, etc.) to what extent are they obligated to accommodate trans women in including them? How do we arbitrate between those interests?
> Although I did see a trans person I know recently point out that they are able to relate with trans women's experiences often more deeply than with cis women's, so the reverse would also likely be true.
Interesting. Could it be that having spaces specifically for trans-* people might be more beneficial for social harmony and individual comfort than turning "female" spaces into "women's" spaces?
> I agree the terminology here is weird. But implicit in your framing is that someone is assigned a gender based on their sex. One is not assigned "man/woman" at all. Or, insofar as a trans woman is AMAB, they were also assigned woman at birth (but this assignment is mental), that's why they chose to transition their appearance, to better align with their gender.
I guess it depends upon who is doing the "assigning" here. My assumption is that "society" is the assigner. So far as I understand, biological sex relates to the role one is able to perform in the reproductive process, and cannot be assigned at all. Gender, being the social construct, would be something that is determined by societal norms. When assigned at birth, would be driven by the biological sex of the child.
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I should add, I see people use the phrase "assigned male/female". Which seems odd to me if sex is a biological construct rather than a social construct. It seems the correct phrase would be "assigned man/woman". Is there something I am missing?
Things are getting just a little bit ridiculous in America when you have people saying "women" is not a sex.
male/female are biological descriptions. Men/Women are social constructs. A man can wear a woman's dress, but a male cannot be pregnant and give birth.
> Men/Women are social constructs.
What does it mean for these categories to be social constructs? What criteria makes one a man or a woman?
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Not at all. It's a gender.
Can you elaborate on what makes that statement so ridiculous on it's face?
If you check a dictionary, the top definition for "woman" is typically something like "an adult female person" or "an adult female human." So the claim that woman/man is a totally different thing from male/female is pretty novel.
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