Comment by thegrimmest
5 years ago
I think the thing that will cool off is the generation of outrage, and heated (note the term), emotional discourse.
> I do think the trend towards shutting people down who you don't agree with is terrible.
I think the more considered and closer one's speech is to factual, the harder it is to generate outrage. I think a cooling trend pushes people in that direction when composing their speech. I think this is a good thing.
I don't think ideals are ever without flaw. The important question is how do we live together when we know that we disagree and will not ever all agree?
> I think the more considered and closer one's speech is to factual, the harder it is to generate outrage
Sadly that's not the case since there is the phenomena of canceling people over what are called "hate facts".
>I think the more considered and closer one's speech is to factual, the harder it is to generate outrage.
Often, the opposite is the case. Having the "wrong" opinion is seen as bad. But having the "wrong" opinion, while also having a very strong argument for it being the correct opinion, is certainly much more outrageous.
Slightly tangental comment: There are certain statistics (namely relating to the fact that people who are black [~13.4% of the US population] are responsible for ~55% of homicide in the US) that are widely auto-censored on reddit. Sure, it may simply be a fact that that is what the statistic is, but reddit (or, at least, several of the largest subreddits) doesn't care that it is pure fact. Even mentioning the statistic is grounds for auto-removal of your comment.
I'll run an experiment to see find the exact extent of the above claimed censorship on reddit, using the account /u/Ender_killed_You. ====================================
Attempt one:
- Result: instant auto-removal
- Subreddit: /r/askreddit
- Comment:
>This is something I just can't wrap my head around: Did you know that according to FBI statistics, black Americans, despite making up only 13% of the population, are responsible for 56% of homicides in the US?[1]
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Attempt two:
- Result: Instant auto-removal
- Subreddit: /r/news
- Comment:
>This is something I just can't wrap my head around: Did you know that according to FBI statistics, black Americans, despite making up only 13% of the population, are responsible for 56% of homicides in the US?[2]
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//I'm now going to post a normal comment, without any illegal statistics included, to see if the removals are to do with something other than the content of the comments.
-----------------------------------------
Attempt three:
- Result: No removal
- Subreddit: /r/pics
- Comment:
>This is really clever! It's cool that at least some people are so into democracy in the USA :) Nothing better than well-informed voters democratically deciding who should be their next leader! [3]
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//Next I will post a nice(i.e., statistic-free) comment on /r/askreddit to see if it is removed there
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Attempt four:
- Result: No removal
- Subreddit: /r/askreddit
- Comment:
>I shall help both, granting each army supernatural powers. Two armies with super-strength and super-speed abilities fighting each other would be an exciting watch.[4]
------------------------------------------------
//So, it has been shown that /r/askreddit and /r/news have been set up to auto censor this statistic. What remains to be shown is the extent to which this censorship is implemented. Is it on all the largest subreddits? On all subreddits by default? etc. etc. My next comment will be on a minor subreddit.
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Attempt five:
- Result: no removal
- Subreddit: /r/Galaxy_S20
- Comment:
>Hello, please don't mind this comment, I'm simply running an experiment about censorship on reddit.
Did you know that black Americans (who make up just 13.4% of the population) are, nonetheless, responsible for 56% of homicides?[5]
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//Interesting. On the minor subreddit the comment is not removed. I'm going to wrap up the experiment here, for now. Make of it what you will!
[1]https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/j1nl5r/what_abso...
[2]https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/j20au2/us_intelligenc...
[3]https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/j237gx/and_when_you_a...
[4]https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/j20dun/two_armie...
[5]https://www.reddit.com/r/Galaxy_S20/comments/j1x7vd/samsung_...
One of the upsides for me during this time of social unrest is that I have been able to put my Sociology degree to major use during discussions.
One of the reasons touting that statistic might get an auto-remove is because it is in itself deceptive, or at least can be in the inferences many people make from it.
Seeing that statistic might make people think that black people are inherently violent, that there is something about black people that make them commit more homicides. the actual reason that many people do not lift from seeing that statistic on its own, is that homicides and violence are directly linked to poverty.
Then, someone who may be uneducated on the matter might believe that black people are simply both poor and violent, which would completely discount generations of systemic oppression targeted toward minorities and black people specifically which have directly led to their higher poverty rates.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wkrA9jP-yA
I don't have a particular epistemic position one way or the other, but I'll suggest the alternate hypothesis that the text "experiment about censorship on reddit" might have had more to do with the lack of removal than it being posted on a minor subreddit.
How? It's automatic removal. Not removal by moderators. I doubt the automatic removal algorithm is that complicated.
It really is a crass and inflammatory statement, though. The 13% number may be supported by data, but the actual meaning and phrasing of the statement is actually highly opinionated.
First, it's a fact that black Americans are over-policed and over-prosecuted compared to white Americans. It is reasonable to believe that the conviction rates are skewed.
Second, there is the nasty business of the phrasing "...responsible for...". It is a reasonable perspective to have that if black Americans engage in more violence, it is because they have been subjected to more violence and deprived of opportunity. And that, ultimately, is in many cases, the responsibility of white Americans.
And then, sometimes people just commit murder, regardless of race.
Without the context of a fully-rendered explicit argument, the implied argument in that statement seems to be one of some kind of innate racial disposition. Which people should rightly reject, if not censor. As noted, the "I'm simply running a test" comment was not censored. So perhaps it isn't the data point that is censored, but the implied argument that you seem to be making.
I understand that it can be frustrating to have a 'fact' censored, especially if your intent is to have a productive discussion about a difficult topic. However, as laid out above, that 'fact' is not as simple as your test makes it out to be. It is a statement derived from statistical data that was collected by a government agency. If you cited it as such, and left out the language connecting moral responsibility with a racial group, it would be a more truthful and objective representation of fact, and might not be censored the same way. The test seems to loosely support this, and actually indicates the censorship being applied on reddit is actually quite effective.
Edit: On a related note, it is interesting how guarded I feel even replying to something like this. It's as if I want not to even be part of such a conversation publicly for fear of algorithmic misinterpretation of my meaning. I assume others feel this way, too, based on the OP. That's not the world any of us want to live in. It's not so much I mind publicly published information being collected and analyzed, but that I fear it being utilized in some grand corporate conspiracy. Perhaps we should legislate not against information collection and analysis, but antisocial behavior analysis conspiracies.
> It is a reasonable perspective to have that if black Americans engage in more violence, it is because they have been subjected to more violence and deprived of opportunity. And that, ultimately, is in many cases, the responsibility of white Americans.
I disagree that this is a reasonable perspective at all. Adult people are wholy responsible for their actions. This fundemental fact underpins our whole society.
I would say that this statistic is primarily used to explain disproportionate encounters with (and subsequently death at the hands of) police. It's important to note that black people are also massively overrepresented as victims of violent crime. This suggests that black communities are generally more violent and therefore more likely to be policed. This fact along with others (like the behaviours of majority black police departments) can be used to construct in good faith a strong argument that there is no epidemic of police racism. This argument is not very popular, so it seems to get censored.
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The statistic is automatically (as in, by a robot, not by a person) removed. I only ever noticed because I made a long comment arguing against the racist use of the statistic (where I linked the table the statistic is from, etc.). However, I'm simply against statistics being banned.
I didn't bother with all the extra stuff in my experiment, because it's not important for testing the robot which removes the comments immediately and automatically.
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