Comment by core-questions
5 years ago
> The 'cancel culture', as it were, is just a subgroup of the left. And frankly, there is a cancel culture on the right, too.
Yes. On this I will agree with you strongly. Both varieties of cancel-culture are essentially the bulwarks of the false dichotomy of American politics - serving as backstops to try to keep people in the middle, which itself is a controlled position.
You're to the left of that. There's actually a lot more to discuss out there, and out to the right of it, than many people realize. For example, broad agreement on rights for workers to a fair wage, benefits, etc. - you'd be surprised how popular that is with the modern American right, when you can get them out from the GOP paradigm and weak, unhelpful talking points.
People seem to have really grabbed on to me supposedly holding the view that “debating immigration is offensive and therefor off limits”.
Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough (which is likely; English is not my first language).
This sub-thread started with an ancestor complaining about people being afraid to discuss certain topics because people are too easily offended, this was expressed as a bad thing:
> The only thing worse than people who are offended by everything is having to be afraid of offending over-sensitive people.
The comment keeps going by pointing out that adults should be able to handle these “offensive” topics and debate them like adults.
A grandparent pointed out that there is truth in this point of view, but this is often used as a critique on “the left” which is unfounded since “left-leaning folks [...] _do_ engage with many people whose experience and world view are very different from them”.
I then point out in my comment above that I agree and—further—being insulted and angry when these topics spring up is perfectly natural:
> A number of people have full rights to be insulted when points are raised on a number of subjects.
I think a lot of people have taken the view that since I think being offended when debating the rights of disenfranchised people I must be for shutting down all debate about it. And while I think that is the right thing to do in certain cases I certainly don’t think that nobody is allowed to debate immigration on a public forum.
My point is that—depending on your stance—people might get offended and angry as you are debating this. It might be theoretical to you, but it might be very real to some people in the room. If your stance is really brutal you shouldn’t be surprised if some people—who may have their or loved once lives threatened by that stance—want to “cancel you”. To reiterate, my point is that it is not a bad thing if some people are afraid to voice their opinions in a public forum, when their opinions are threatening to disenfranchised people.
But you're making yourself the arbiter of what can and cannot be debated, which is intolerable, as such a person automatically wins any 'debate' they feel strongly about. You say you support shutting down debate "in certain cases" but the moment you go there, you're always going to get strong pushback.
Imagine if Trump announced tomorrow that debates on workers rights were off-limits because they were a threat to the very existence of job creators. And then he tried to even make it illegal, to create a culture where anyone who talked about unions positively was immediately fired? Would the left recognise that as a legit strategy and go, oh ok, I guess if he says shutting down debate in that case is legitimate then it must be?
Of course not. You may not rule your pet topics off-limits for debate. Ever. On anything. Countries that try that in even mild ways have endless problems, though they may not immediately become apparent.
debating the rights of disenfranchised people
Look, I am an immigrant. I have been for 15 years. And I know that until I become a citizen I am a guest. Not a "disenfranchised person", a guest in another people's homeland. Until they make me one of them via citizenship, I have to respect that and act like a guest.
Your (genuinely) devil's advocacy on immigration is that there should be no limits on it, at all. This has become a common theme on the modern left, but why? It's the same as arguing that if a guest is invited into someone's home, then they can immediately turn around and invite whoever else they like to stay in that home as well, whilst expecting the hosts to accomodate everyone without limit. It's not physically or financially possible but it's also morally wrong and a bizarre attack on the very notion of guesthood.
If your stance is really brutal you shouldn’t be surprised if some people—who may have their or loved once lives threatened by that stance—want to “cancel you”.
But nobody is having the lives of their loved ones "threatened" by any of the stances you outlined, which is why people react so badly to this kind of rhetoric. Not being invited to live in a new place is not a "threat", it's not even taking any action at all - it is passive. And for those who ignored the laws and principles of immigration, being deported is only a "threat" in the same sense that society saying you will go to prison for fraud is a "threat" - we use different languages for the consequences of lawbreaking because of the different context in which such "threats" happen.
> But you're making yourself the arbiter of what can and cannot be debated.
No I’m not. I’m saying there are topics which are disenfranchising which may offend or threaten a person. If I am offended by such speech (either personally or through a friend or family member) I may react appropriately. My goal may certainly be to silence this speech, but that does not make me an arbitrator does it?
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Sounds like we could probably have a fascinating discussion. I get so tired of the same old tired name-calling and finger-pointing that most people count as political discussion. My Facebook is filled with posts from both sides which do nothing more than hurl insults at the other side.
Nobody actually wants to talk about issues. Bring up anything specific and everyone just goes silent. It's boring, and a bit offensive. People with so little imagination do us all a disservice by expressing it so strongly.