Comment by JPKab
4 years ago
Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator.
That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. While I empathize with the author, and utterly despise the archetype of high-status men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women, I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author? Likely. A way to mobilize support? Certainly. But the method can be abused. Imagine a letter like this targeted at you one day, except unlike Mr. Pretty, you are innocent. Ask yourself if that's a possibility, and if you think that there is a zero probability of anyone maliciously weaponizing accusations of sexual misconduct.
My brother was a victim of a vicious smear by a female colleague, who falsely accused him of stalking her as a result of him calling her out one day for stealing his project and presenting it while he was traveling to the funeral of his wife's grandfather. He was able to show video footage of him picking up his son and daughter at a daycare the very moment the woman claimed he was at her house, but by then, the HR department couldn't turn back, and he was fired. (He was later sent a large gift basket by several of his coworkers who had heard from someone in HR that the charges were false, but "optics" were the reason they had to move forward with his termination.)
I only kind of agree.
In this case a Chinese woman living in the USA apparently got raped in Germany 3 years ago. To involve law enforcement she would have to travel to a country where she doesn't speak the language, to make an accusation for which she has no evidence but her word, against a man who lives in another city.
What, exactly, do you imagine that the police are likely to do with her report?
I hate the court of public opinion as much or more as the next guy. But if this is a real pattern and he is as practiced as it sounds, after 10-20 women come forth then I'll be very confident that the crime is real. And there is also a chance that we can hit a critical mass where law enforcement somewhere may take an interest after all.
I agree with you that ideally this would go to the police first and they would actually act. But in the real world, she picked one of the best of the bad options available to her.
>>To involve law enforcement she would have to travel to a country where she doesn't speak the language, to make an accusation for which she has no evidence but her word, against a man who lives in another city.
Well, that's not strictly true. At least the official advice in the UK is that even if the crime happened elsewhere you should still report it locally, then the case should be forwarded to the authorities in the country where it allegedly happened.
https://www.helpforvictims.co.uk/content/Q1.htm#:~:text=You%....
No idea how/if that would work in US, but in general you should be able to report it locally.
>What, exactly, do you imagine that the police are likely to do with her report?
If it's anything like the UK (and I suspect it is), they'll likely take it seriously. For example, see the police's reaction here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/comments/mt1kw4/withd...
If she got robbed, on the other hand, or she reported something like this ten years ago, they'd probably say "meh we are busy, here's your crime reference number now go away".
That is rather astounding. And completely opposite anything that I've ever heard, including from a woman I know who reported her rape less than 5 years ago in Australia.
Meanwhile in the USA we literally have enough untested rape kits to fill a small city. According to https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rape-kits-are-sit... at least 100,000. (Nobody is really tracking the numbers well, so it is probably more than that.)
> raped
I agree with everything else in your post except for the description of events as "rape". According to the story she wrote, they had sex when she was drunk, and she thought for months after the fact that the sex had been consensual. To me it sounds like sexual abuse / exploitation, not rape. (Unless you're making the pedantic argument that having sex with an intoxicated person is always rape, in which case 2 intoxicated persons having sex would mean that both persons rape each other.)
According to the story they had sex while drunk. But then he kept on having sex with her, including when she was saying that she didn't want him to.
It is rape to have sex with a woman who didn't want it and told you not to. She describes exactly that happening later in the conference. Yes, she tried to convince herself that it was consensual. And he tried to convince her of the same. But that is also a common pattern for rape, both her attempt to deny it and his to gaslight her.
Interestingly in surveys, the portion of women who describe having had an encounter meeting the definition of rape has held fairly steady over the decades. But the portion of women who self-describe that as rape has steadily risen. Then really jumped in 2018. Given that fact I find it interesting that he seems to target women from cultures that haven't internalized "no means no" as a standard. Cultures where it is easier for the man to do what he wants, then convince her that he didn't rape her.
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Sweden and Uk spent tens of millions dealing with extradition case for just getting a hearing over an accusation with similar amount of evidence.
Technically the legal system could do the same in her case.
Piss off a superpower, and you'd be ASTOUNDED at how far backwards law enforcement will bend to take any complaint about you seriously.
I would not take Julian Assange's situation as indicative of anything other than that Assange made powerful enemies.
We are not in the 80’s anymore. At least in the western world the police is far more prepared to help victims than in the past. Usually the victim is supported by a female investigator, because differently from the past, at least in bigger cities a sizable portion of the police force are women. We are creating this culture of woman fearing getting help from police by pretending things didn’t change during the last 40 years
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Technically correct is the least useful kind of correct.
>To involve law enforcement she would have to travel to a country where she doesn't speak the language, to make an accusation for which she has no evidence but her word, against a man who lives in another city.
That's what an embassy is for... they help deal with these situation.
>And there is also a chance that we can hit a critical mass where law enforcement somewhere may take an interest after all.
Don't complain that a law enforcement agency doesn't do anything if they're never made aware of the problem.
> That's what an embassy is for... they help deal with these situation.
Have you ever worked with an embassy? I have, it's no picnic even in the best of circumstances (lost passport). It takes time to setup such an appointment and you are expecting a young college student to have the wherewithal to navigate that all while being on a budget and having their current lodging with the aggressor.
You are expecting an abused person to do everything right in a foreign county while currently staying with their abuser.
Don't blame a sexual abuse victim for not doing everything right and by the books.
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There are plenty of stories of law enforcement ignoring, downplaying, and even harassing victims of sexual crimes who try to report it. Please do not act like the police are a high trust authority who act only in good faith - we have overwhelmingly seen the other side of that in these past years.
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I wonder if Pretty specifically chose this modus operandi (taking a woman to a third country before moving on her) to get himself a layer of legal protection. It’s a well-established practice in abuse communities after all (e.g. people traveling to Asia).
It’s also interesting that this scenario would have probably been more unlikely in the past. Before the “sexual revolution”, an educated woman would never sleep alone in the same house as an unmarried man, for fear of her “honour” being maligned. That set of cultural values had its (massive) problems, but in some scenarios it actually worked better than the current one, effectively forcing women to avoid dangerous situations.
Not all criminal investigations are solved or competently followed. However this doesn't mean you should take justice in your own hands, which is what mob justice is. This is plain disrespect for official authority and the principal of "innocent until proven otherwise". Even murderers with clear and shut cases are afforded legal council and ways to defend themselves.
Also, this could have been resolved if this was reported in timely manner, not years after. She is a victim, however her followup actions are neither correct nor proper.
The problem is that only a tiny percentage of harassers and rapists are ever convicted. The court -- rightly -- sets a very high bar to conviction, and police and prosecutors often won't even attempt it unless the evidence is overwhelming.
You're concerned that this is stacked against you, but the courts are stacked against the victims. So it doesn't really suffice to decry the one problem without addressing the other.
So perhaps you can see what it looks like to many women when you say, "Hey, I'm sorry this happened to you, but this bad thing happened to my brother, so _shrug_". Did your brother go to the courts and police to address these issues? It may been unlawful termination.
There is a large domain of behavior that is either nebulously legal or difficult to prosecute but which makes our communities much, much worse. It's counterproductive to tell the people victimized by that to stop talking about it. The solution is to go forward and find ways to set up our communities to protect people. And that can't mean just asking victims to accept that.
> the courts are stacked against the victims
Ah, that pesky presumption of innocence getting in the way of our 100% conviction rate. /s
The first sentence is literally:
"The problem is that only a tiny percentage of harassers and rapists are ever convicted. The court -- rightly -- sets a very high bar to conviction, and police and prosecutors often won't even attempt it unless the evidence is overwhelming.".
First, its a poor place and topic for sarcasm (it just an observation, i'm not against it, i do have good friends like that) but more than that, GP actually adressed the point you're trying to highlight in his first sentence.
That wasn't being disputed. It does mean that, in the real world, a lot of victims will never see justice until there's overwhelming evidence, if ever.
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"The problem is that only a tiny percentage of harassers and rapists are ever convicted."
How can that be known? Why do you presume that someone is a harasser or rapist if they weren't convicted?
Less than 1% of rapes lead to felony convictions: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/10/06/less-than...
Same article notes that between 2-8% of rape complaints are false. Worries about false rape claims are wildly overblown.
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Do you think that OJ was innocent?
And if not, doesn't that imply you also agree (to an extent) that trials/law enforcement on heavily politicized cases have the potential to be totally mismanaged and end in injustice?
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Because I know people who have been harassed and raped and whose harassers and rapists weren't punished.
I know literally dozens of stories like that, and maybe a handful where the harasser or rapist was punished at all. Of those, even fewer where they were convicted of a crime.
The majority of these cases the victim isn't public in their accusation, there's no argument that they're trying to gain something or hurt someone else. So by comparing the data that is presumably more honest, that people make in private, to that in public, we can assume that most instances of harassment go unpunished.
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> The court -- rightly -- sets a very high bar to conviction
Rape convictions are so abysmally low that there's been a lot of rethinking in feminist circles as to whether the "beyond reasonable doubt" standard -- or even the presumption of innocence -- is fair or just. Some countries have been looking for ways to ameliorate this. For example, in thr USA, college date rape is such a problem that universities are required to investigate accusations of sexual harassment or assault and discipline offenders based on the looser preponderance standard, or be found in violation of Title IX by the federal Department of Education.
It seems like 68% [0] of rape prosecutions result in a conviction. And that’s higher than the 61% rate for violent crimes.
So it seems we’re pretty good at convicting rapists, it’s the arresting that we’re bad at. And since RAINN [1] estimates that only 230/1000 are reported to police and of those only 43 lead to arrest and 9 to prosecution. If the ratios stay the same, then if we reported every rape then convictions would increase 4x.
[0] Table 21, as of 2009 https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fdluc09.pdf [1] https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fdluc09.pdf
This problem can only be solved with trial by coin toss
> The court -- rightly -- sets a very high bar to conviction, and police and prosecutors often won't even attempt it unless the evidence is overwhelming.
Huh? Have you ever heard of the Central Park Five? Google "Central Park Five" and you'll have a more enlightened view!
The Central Park five voluntarily confessed and were almost certainly guilty. The only issue was that there was a sixth perpetrator who had raped the victim after and wasn’t caught at the time.
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> That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason.
The alleged crimes are difficult to prove in general, but in this case the victim seems to have been only visiting the country where the crime occurred. And didn't fully understand what had happened contemporaneously. I would hope she approaches the appropriate criminal authorities to report, and I would hope something is done, but without local knowledge of how these reports are handled in Berlin, I would expect it to mostly be written down somewhere and no further action taken.
Speaking out in a public way like this helps others who experienced the same pattern of behavior to recognize it, and possibly share similar experiences to the point where a criminal investigation may be started, if relevant. It also may help put people who might be exposed to similar behavior in the future on notice, so they can attempt to avoid it, or report it as it happens, if it happens in the future.
> Imagine a letter like this targeted at you one day, except unlike Mr. Pretty, you are innocent.
“Imagine that you were convicted of murder but, unlike John Wayne Gacy, you were innocent.”
Seriously what is the point of comments like this? False convictions are real and very very bad, but I know very few social justice advocates who are opposed to locking up serial killers. Likewise, the existence of unscrupulous people who make false accusations of sexual assault/etc is a real problem. But that’s a very shitty excuse to trash every public accusation - especially when in practice it is the public accusation that leads to more victims speaking out.
More to the point: Jon Pretty is a notable public figure who has been credibly accused of extremely toxic and disgusting behavior towards large portions of the Scala community. At least some of this behavior is clearly not illegal, merely dangerous and profoundly unethical[1]. Therefore the court of public opinion is the only court that has solid jurisdiction, so to speak.
[1] That said: some of the accusations and the large number of alleged victims merit a criminal investigation.
> Imagine that you were convicted of murder
OP points out that we have criminal courts for a reason - he's not comparing this scenario with an actual conviction after a trial with presumed innocence. In your analogy, it would have to be common for people to be fired from their jobs (and blackballed from entire industries) on the strength of a murder accusation that hasn't even been presented to the police, much less been through a trial.
John Wayne Gacy was convicted in a criminal court of law, with rules, where he was presumed innocent until proven guilty.
You attempt to draw a connection, but it's a false analogy out of the gate.
I mostly agree with the point you're making, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that the jury actually really presumed Gacy innocent at the start of his trial.
Like everyone, they were certainly biased toward assuming his guilt in the run-up to the trial.
No system is perfect, and humans are fallible. But that's kinda the underlying issue with this entire discussion: if she had gone to the authorities (especially if only years after the incident in question, and also consider that the incident happened in a different country), would there be any legal remedy here? I think it's pretty likely that nothing material would have come of that.
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> Therefore the court of public opinion is the only court that has solid jurisdiction, so to speak.
based on what his public info shows about his location this medium post (and the ensuing public outrage) cops in that country will have to press charges (in case they haven't been pressed already).
There is a high chance he is a flight risk so they will book him, _unless_:
... then he is looking forward to spending 6 months minimum in "Untersuchungshaft" (hard time) or for whatever length of time investigations are ongoing (until trial).
What I'm getting at is that this is a very serious allegation that _will_ result in hard time if convicted but also until he actually gets his day in court! But for that to happen she needs to do more than a Medium post (make a statement with the cops which can be scary but shouldn't be if she actually brings a lawyer). In case she doesn't then it needs to be considered a character assassination which itself is a felony. In any case posting such a piece is legally risky for her and if she would have bothered getting a lawyer, they most certainly would have advised her against it. The best option for her would be to go through the court system of where he is currently located.
Most other options have a high risk of this going nowhere (cost + extradition etc) and even give more room for speculation and he-said-she-said which shouldn't (imho) be the goal of the metoo movement and indeed it should be called out for mob-justice.
I think there are a few problems with this:
Another commenter mentions somewhere here that the specific thing that happened may not have been illegal in Germany then (but is now). I don't know how to verify that as I don't speak German.
This happened several years ago; there is no physical evidence that remains. This, as you allude to, is a he-said-she-said situation. I assume there are emails/texts/etc. that might speak to Pretty's poor character and ill intent, but that's not much. In the US this would almost certainly not be enough for a conviction. Maybe it would be in Germany or the UK, but I suspect not.
Agree that she may have opened herself up to legal liability (at least an accusation of libel or defamation). As I recall, in the UK it is harder than in the US to defend oneself in court against accusations of libel.
It is possible, though, that Pretty might be dissuaded from bringing any legal action because doing so will only draw more attention to his bad behavior, and could result in a worse situation for him than just going and hiding under a rock for a few years.
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You are conflating conviction with mere, non-legal accusation.
Conviction means someone made an accusation at a legal level, then it was considered worthy by police, then by a country's prosecution service, then by a jury, and then (probably) by an appeals court too. Under normal circumstances, that's a bar infinitely higher than, "I'm claiming to have a story about someone."
I think there’s a crucial point that you missed:
“...there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason”
John Wayne Gacy was convicted in a court via the criminal justice system. As a society, we have chosen this as our mechanism for adjudicating these types of accusations, and that mechanism has evolved certain safeguards over time. It’s not perfect, but it is a far fairer venue to be tried in than the “court of public opinion”. That’s not an insignificant point, and you’re glossing over it entirely.
No, because Gacy was accused of things that were actually illegal, whereas much of what Pretty was accused of is clearly not illegal, just shitty. So, as I said in my comment and hardly “glossed over,” the court of public opinion (and the possibility of social / professional sanction) are entirely appropriate!
This idea that individuals aren’t allowed to publicly criticize the actions of public figures, or report on their own experiences with public figures, is so painfully stupid that I find it astonishing that you are arguing in good faith. This is not something you would actually believe in other contexts (say, if a CEO is accused of verbal abuse).
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I'd never heard of that guy, so to save others the trouble, in 1980 he was found "guilty of 33 charges of murder; he was also found guilty of sexual assault and taking indecent liberties with a child" and was executed by the USA in 1994.
All true, but you forgot the money shot:
“A clown can get away with murder.” —John Wayne Gacy
John Wayne Gacy, often called the "Killer Clown," was one of the worst serial killers in U.S. history, raping and murdering at least 33 young male victims.
https://www.biography.com/crime-figure/john-wayne-gacy
John Waters hangs one of John Wayne Gacy's infamous clown paintings on the wall of his guest room, so his guests never stay too long.
Politically Incorrect with John Waters
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7zFp7CaJqE&ab_channel=lurie...
Chilling paintings by ‘killer clown’ John Wayne Gacy expected to sell for £7,000 each
https://metro.co.uk/2017/10/09/chilling-paintings-by-killer-...
Someone should coin a law for this phenomenon: Every single time a ~~woman~~ victim makes a public statement like this, in the comment sections a man must be discussing false accusations or the court of public opinion. I don't think I've ever not seen this.
People who are abused are damned if they do, damned if they don't.
edit: removed specific gender
edit2: I'm not trying to be inflammatory here. This is a phenomenon that I've noticed over the years.
And people who are accused are damned, period. I can see why mob justice can sometimes be the only options for victims, but the abuse potential is massive.
By the way, I see no reason a woman or a trans person could not make this statement.
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We need to be able to listen to accusers. We also need to be able to evaluate the accusations honestly. If it's taboo to express doubt or skepticism of accusations of sexual impropriety, then that isn't functional either.
I think you've got the phenomenon backwards: when people are skeptical of a murder accusation or an alleged robbery, it's accepted as part of normal discourse. But showing skepticism of allegations of sexual impropriety is not.
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It's also a completely false argument since there's libel and slander laws. If the accused was innocent, they would simply sue the false accuser. That they don't says everything.
The barrier and punishment for coming forward as a victim of sexual abuse, rape or harassment is great indeed. Questioning every case is ignorance of existing laws setup to handle any false accusations.
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> heard from someone in HR that the charges were false, but "optics" were the reason they had to move forward with his termination.
Time to name the company.
A massive company that makes overpriced, low-quality athletic products that double as status symbols, which they manufacture overseas (often using child labor) but then sell for massive markups in the US, Europe, etc. They have an extremely aggressive "woke" presence in their advertising, because as long as you care about social justice for your targeted customers, who cares that "people of color" in the developing world are being paid slave wages to create your products. You probably know who I'm talking about now, but I'm not going to name them.
Sounds like your brother believed in something and sacrificed everything. If I were him, I might hire an employment lawyer and sue the shit out of them. Ya know, "Just do it."
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Seems like your brother can probably sue for damages if this is the whole story
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Nike.
Hell, I'd do anything for a downvote.
you spelled "nike" wrong.
IANAL, but if the story is true, would it be reasonable to sue that coworker for defamation/slander and for lost wages?
The average person doesn't have the means to launch an extensive and hard to win lawsuit like that.
I think that's a pretty cynical POV. False accusations happen, but aren't the norm. Far more abusers get away with their bad behavior than good people are wrongly punished. Yifan already has a second woman coming forward describing similar behavior as well some witnesses to some of the public parts. It's probably unlikely she'd be able to prove a criminal case in whatever country this happened, but we don't need bad behavior to be criminal to declare it unacceptable and stop rewarding it. It's likely we'll see a few more pretty soon, hear Pretty's side and then the court of public opinion can render a decision. Right now, her story is pretty plausible and she has seemingly no motive to fabricate. He won't go to jail, but he will stop being invited to conferences and likely lose his livelihood.
> there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason Having supported a few friends trying to push these kinds of complaints through the courts, I think the precise reason this kind of naming and shaming has become so common place is the criminal justice system isn't working well.
Even for fairly straightforward sexual assault case in a liberal jurisdiction with witnesses I've watched a friend struggle with members of the justice system verbally insulting and degrading them as they try to obtain justice for themselves.
Having seen all that when I see a post like this I understand why the author did not go to court, and don't question it. If we took the time to actually fix the courts I'd be much more skeptical of claims that had not been presented to law enforcement.
I feel for people like your brother who are victims of people abusing the trend, but as long as our justice system fails victims so horribly I think this is the least bad solution available.
Can you please provide proof that our justice system is failing victims? Do you just mean that the conviction rate is anything less than 100% for accusations?
Also, can you clarify what you mean by "verbally insulting and degrading them"? It's possible you just mean the lawyer is accusing them of lying... which is what you do when you think a person is lying. The accused does have a presumption of innocence, and the accuser may need to be cross examined under some reasonable amount of emotional stress to see if their behavior under stress reveals that they are lying. There's not really any way around this other than "well, we'll just assume they're telling the truth and anyone they accuse is guilty" which is a far worse solution in my opinion.
> Can you please provide proof that our justice system is failing victims? Do you just mean that the conviction rate is anything less than 100% for accusations?
I'm confused that you think this is something I can prove through citations. The way we adjudicate whether someone is a victim is through the courts, my claim is the courts do a bad job of this. There are only two things I can think to poinnt you at:
1. The numerous written accounts online of women attempting to get justice and being stonewalled. Some of the more famous cases during the beginning of the #metoo era showed this.
2. I can say that the lived experience of every woman I know to have gone through the courts found it unnecessarily degrading (n~=20) and while I believe all of them, only a quarter (n~=5) received a guilty verdict. I know far more women who did not go through the process due to stories from women they know.
I'm personally convinced, if you're not I understand but am not ready to expend the energy digging up cases to try and convince you.
> can you clarify what you mean by "verbally insulting and degrading them"
Literal slurs, misogynistic generalizations about women being temptresses, stereotypically horrible questions such as "were you asking for it?"
> Can you please provide proof that our justice system is failing victims? Do you just mean that the conviction rate is anything less than 100% for accusations?
Nobody is asking for near 100% conviction rates.
In the UK there are about 150,000 rapes per year. Police record about 60,000 crimes. CPS prosecutes fewer than 5,000 cases. Courts convict fewer than 2,000 people.
Rape is a very serious crime. A less than 2% conviction rate is failing the victims.
We have a criminal justice system so that, when the standard of proof can be met, the state can punish and deter wrongdoers through fines, forcible incarceration and other limitations on freedom.
No-one is entitled to maintain a positive reputation just because they've yet to be convicted in a criminal court. One can be a creepy sex-pest without that behavior rising the level of criminality, and one should not be surprised if rumors of such behavior get around.
For those who feel they are being slandered, there is a law of defamation and a civil courts system for a reason. At least there, the burden of proof is only balance of probabilities.
You see the double standard you’re preaching?
When a woman is sexually assaulted, you tell them to use the justice system. You stick to this despite other folks telling you the chances of conviction are low. You don’t want people to make public accusations.
And yet you, in this thread, have no problem making accusations against Nike for wrongful termination. Why not use the legal system to pursue this? You answer that too - low chance of success apparently.
Within a few minutes you’ve done exactly what you’re asking OP not to do.
I agree with you about the accusations. He sounds creepy; but one blog-entry is not exactly hard evidence. An internet mob may assume its all true anyway.
> men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women
Wouldn't "programming communities" be one of the worst places for a true predator? There are so few women compared to men here. I would think most predators would choose the modeling or acting industry; where this type of behavior is almost expected...
I would presume that many predators have followed that exact line of thinking, and there may be population pressure pushing them towards other fields. Any ecological model will show that a certain population of prey can support only so many predators, if you'll pardon the pun, so some must naturally migrate to fill other niches that, while not as abundant, are less crowded with competition. You'll probably find less sophisticated predators in these sparser environments, as they were outcompeted by "stronger" (read, more careful, charismatic, and effective) predators in the richer ecologies.
An interesting thought. Under this model, (and I realize that this is a post-facto realization, but what can we do?) we would expect to see significantly more reports of predator behavior in these less competitive niches than the objective number of predators would imply, because the predators in them are less skilled at hiding their predation than predators in the more prey-rich environments.
Abusers will use the platform they have
> Ask yourself if that's a possibility, and if you think that there is a zero probability of anyone maliciously weaponizing accusations of sexual misconduct.
As a straight, white man: False accusations of sexual assault are extremely rare, but they do happen. It's not a zero probability event.
I guess my response is, right now there's a nonzero chance of someone assaulting someone else, and then a nonzero chance they'll away with it. And there's a nonzero chance of someone making a false accusation and another nonzero chance of them getting away with it. We as a society have to weigh the likelihood of each of these four things occurring.
All experience (and you can look this up) is that sexual assault is perpetrated relatively frequently, and people frequently aren't held accountable in the criminal justice system, for a variety of reasons. OTOH the evidence is that false accusations are vanishingly rare in comparison.
So we should just...keep this in mind, is all, before saying that this kind of public statement is counterproductive. Maybe it protects someone from him, or maybe it protects someone from someone like him. Sure, I'd like him to be in jail, but maybe in the flawed system we live with today, the best we can hope for is he's kicked out of the Scala community. Maybe that would be productive?
It’s the modern day equivalent of being accused of witchcraft. You get a trial but good luck getting your reputation back. People are trained not to doubt this sort of thing end assume guilt, then when confronted they rattle off some supposed statistical fact that it’s virtually impossible for the accuser to be lying.
What are people supposed to do then. If your friend sees somebody at the store and says “that guy is an asshole, he used to beat me up in middle school” do you respond “wait I can’t develop any opinion of that person without a trial”?
Of course not, but that's because I know my friend personally. If I saw someone putting up posters outside my apartment complex saying "the guy in Unit 214 is an asshole, he used to beat me up in middle school", I wouldn't spread the accusation without knowing more about what's going on.
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What are you going to do ? Just believe it ?
Ok, my sister was raped by her boss, was found in her appartment three days later my father, who immediately called a lawyer (female, specialized in criminal law). She told my sister that since they were only two in the kitchen with no surveillance camera, she couldn't sue but only report (its called "main courante" in my country) and "hope" that another girl is raped before 2039 and report it. The policeman concurred, nothing to be done.
I still shout "rapist owned" each time i pass his business, as do my brother and my father, my sister privately shared her story with his daughter on facebook last year (his daughter is one year younger than my sister, the creep), basically destroying their relationship, and the cooking school my sister went to directly called all female student and ex-student to tell them to avoid his restaurant. I also scraped social networks (only public data, nothing illegal) for his activities two years ago but only found business contacts. Each of them still received a nice email though.
I will move back next month, so i will continue my shouting campaign harder after the pandemic end and hope his business can't survive covid. Since his restaurant will be between my place and the place i keep my boat, i'm pretty sure i can be successful.
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Honestly i can't say i will ever stop stalking him even if he had to sell his business. I'm thinking of sending him accusing emails on temp email accounts (scripted of course, my sister got herself back in one piece after a year and a half, and i even think she is now way stronger than she used to, i won't waste that much time for him).
I’m sorry that happened to your family but what do you get out of doing all that. It can’t be more than some sort of satisfaction.
Except there's no such thing as witchcraft but sexual harassment is very real. Victims have every right to speak up.
Libel and slander laws are also real. If someone is actually making a false accusation, there's already legal ways to deal with it.
As the parent mentioned, the problem isn't recourse it is by that stage your life is already ruined. I don't think there is a clear answer though, the only moral thing to do is to support the accuser.
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>there's already legal ways to deal with it
suing can cost money, time, effort, and may not able to necessarily clear your name even if you won.
The redress for a false accusation that results in serious harm to your career is a slander lawsuit. Sounds like all the ducks are in a row, evidence wise, so just figure out how much damage she caused, and sue her for it.
I know it's not quite the same, and an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure- but there's this narrative that a person who is falsely accused is utterly powerless before the power of any angry woman willing to yell "perv", and that's just false.
My brother was suicidal at one time due to the accusations, and more importantly, the fact that everyone immediately believed them. When his wife got the idea to call the daycare and ask if they had video footage, he thought for sure he'd be saved. (His employer also had his company cell phone location data which further corroborated his alibi). He literally proved himself innocent to his HR department. But if you've ever been involved on the inside in one of these situations, once HR has initiated a termination, they end up introducing additional liability if they halt the termination (effectively admitting they were in the wrong).
He certainly COULD have sued for slander, but the cost of the lawsuit and retaining a lawyer, and for him, the emotional toll, was too high.
And I completely understand that there is a huge toll for accusers as well.
I think, depending on the venue, that the process can be very traumatic for accusers with real claims, and also accused who are targeted by false accusations. The colleague who accused him was a woman who his coworkers had warned him "not to cross" because she was "a total sociopath" according to his other team members. One of them even told him "you should have listened to me" after he was terminated.
It's interesting how poorly most coders understand the realities of human nature. People aren't devils, but they aren't angels either.
I just really resent the fact that any attempt at injecting nuance into these kinds of conversations brings out attacks from the un-nuanced, tribalists who reduce everything down to bumper sticker slogans and identity groups. It's disgusting and reminds me of the sectarian conflicts I've witnessed in other nations.
HR isn't there to protect you, it's to protect the company.
> his coworkers had warned him "not to cross" because she was "a total sociopath" according to his other team members.
This is exactly what the author of the blog post is doing: warning other people about this person.
What's doubly ironic is that the bar for convicting an actual predator in a criminal court of law is incredibly high, but the bar for winning a libel case against a false accuser in a civil court is... A lot lower.
It's far easier to obtain justice when you are falsely accused, then when you have been assaulted - but HN threads on the subject are predominantly full of arguments about how awful the falsely accused have it.
Arguably the problem in your brother’s case is more his organization being willing to ignore evidence in favor of “optics”, and less the ability of women to make their experiences with predators public.
When accusations like this come out, organizations with a stake in the outcome should act with integrity to find the truth and respond to it. Witch hunts are never a good idea. But the fact that some men may be falsely accused doesn’t mean women shouldn’t speak up when they have experiences like this. Ironically, many (if not most) women who don’t speak up publicly end up being gaslighted and marginalized by the very same kinds of corporate entities who were willing to throw your brother under the bus for optics. By the same token, it’s often a last ditch attempt to get some help after all other avenues have failed.
>That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason.
If you come to my home and act in a way that my family and other guests find offensive, we're not going to invite you back. We're also not going to try to prosecute you.
There is a huge set of behaviors that are not criminal nor civil offenses, but still things that if experienced would likely lead people to want to avoid you, not hire you, not work with you etc.
The author did not claim that Mr. Pretty broke any laws. She doesn't call for any legal consequences. There's no basis for suggesting that the story needs to be judged by a legal system.
We have criminal and civil justice systems that have different levels of burden of proof, and correspondingly differ in the severity of their outcomes.
It makes sense to also have social justice systems that are lower burden of proof and have lesser consequences. Especially for crimes that are difficult to prosecute and have low visibility.
I can empathize with your brother's situation. That kind of thing is horrifying for anyone to imagine.
With that said, creeps like this continue to proliferate because the courts only do anything in very rare cases (Cosby or other serial abusers). It typically only hurts people who were abused, not helps - it can take years to go through court, and in this situation because it's across borders there's likely no court to file with.
People come forward in blog posts because it's often their only reasonable way to try to hold someone accountable and warn other potential victims.
It's a bit strange that you claim that the proper venue for this sort of thing is the justice system, but then relate a story where your brother for some reason did not avail himself of the justice system to right a wrong against him.
And that just rams the point home: often the justice system doesn't help, and actively hurts. If he'd brought suit against his former employer for terminating him, even if he won, he would have gained a reputation in his field for being litigious toward employers, and that would have greatly hurt his future employment prospects.
So maybe, just maybe, there are reasons the justice system isn't going to work so well in this situation either.
> Imagine a letter like this targeted at you one day, except unlike Mr. Pretty, you are innocent.
You already assume he is guilty ?
Being a manipulative jerk and creep is not a crime.
I think it's very brave of this woman to write such an article, and warn future victims about this person. So in that sense, such articles NEED to be written. Who knows how many young girls she saved from the same experience.
HR should have fired the female colleague upon discovering the allegations were proven false, not left it up to the courts and criminal justice system.
Yes, what happened to due diligence?
What happened to free speech? If you think this is slander, don't the same rules apply; mustn't we presume the innocence of Yifan until she's proven guilty?
I think you made my point.
We used to have a process to figure out what happened and make a judgement after the facts have been laid out.
What we get now is emotional responses to outrageous headlines and mobs ready to crucify the accused.
What a farce.
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Very tactful. You should respond with this story in real life when someone tells you they were sexually abused.
You know the reason people started leaning into social justice is because the cops and the courts weren't doing a very good job? That's why we are where we are. Also the fact that a lot of dudes just can't imagine a world where they just keep to themselves doesn't really help the problem. But again, this is where we find ourselves and it is going to keep continuing.
And frankly the idea that there are people that believe "smear campaigns" are as normal as every day sexual harassment is extremely laughable.
I'm sure what your brother faced is terrible but how exactly does this relate to the story?
Behavior like this should be punished within the framework of the civil and criminal court system. The court of public opinion has no rules as to the validity of evidence introduced, and relies on informal enforcement mechanisms as well, which are prone to abuse.
The court of public opinion still thinks that the riots in Kenosha were justified (the actual courts heard and saw real evidence that determined that Mr. Blake was indeed sexually assualting his ex and was indeed reaching for a knife when he was shot). The court of public opinion thought that the invasion of Iraq in 2003 was justified because they thought Saddam helped OBL. The recent case of the teenage girl shot in Columbus featured the Court of Public Opinion weighing in that the girl should have been allowed to stab the other girl pinned against that car, and the cop should have "shot her in the leg", which any expert on use of force would immediately explain would not have worked. Why? Because the public as a whole is filled with smart individuals, but an an aggregate level are a bunch of moronic lemmings, like all large groups of people are.
You've listed a number of disparately connected recent news events and referred to some ominous "Court of Public Opinion" which has come to some perspective as if it somehow unites them. My point is you're drawing some thread and connecting this all to your brother. I'll echo again something I said in another reply, I'm not sure how analogous or connected these things are. It sounds mostly like your brother had his word against another accusation, and HR sided against him. Is HR now the "court of public opinion?" I thought that qualifies as due process in this case.
Again you're making some bigger point only you seem to be hearing but spell it out for me and for everyone else.
It was an example of how this method can be abused comparing to the criminal justice system.
its a reminder that mob justice is really terrible when it is wrong. we dont have all the facts. we should absolutely take precautions from this guy causing further harm, but the rape accusation needs to go thru the legal process including allowing the accused to defend themselves.
My point is that these are not that analogous. The linked account is one of many accusations against John Pretty. What the comment is referring to is an accusation that sounds like it's one person's word against another and primarily a conflict confined to one HR department. It isn't really "mob justice" then, it's HR siding with one party.
Well, in this instance given that his coworkers sent him a gift basket, it sounds like the mob came to the right conclusions while the institution took the wrong action.
I don't like this court-of-public-opinion stuff much either and the abuse potential is real. At the same time: what else are people going to do? There seems to be no other recourse.
Most people let bullies get away with it because even stepping in as a third party means standing up to a bully. It can be scary, but even if there's no real risk it's still a fucking pain in the ass. Who wants to get into a mud slinging competition with a predator? Or get a harassment lawsuit? If someone is willing to harass other people this way, they will certainly harass you this way.
Contact law enforcement.
A relative ran an online community. It was small, but not tiny
There was some cyber-bullying (for lack of a better word) going on. My relative called law-enforcement, then was referred to the FBI. A case was filed and was told they would circle back on it to collect details. They never called back. My relative was never able to make contact with them about it again.
Completely ignored. I can't remember the details, but it wasn't just a "you're fat and ugly" type of bullying. But it was a real safety issue for a member of the community. Law enforcement completely failed in this case.
Now what?
I despise the "public court". The internet and viral online comments deciding who's innocent and who's guilty. (the man during the US capitol riots who lost his job because he was seen in a photo holding a black woman. Turns out, he was actually saving her life! But the "public court" announced him as guilty and they went after him, contacting his employer, people saying awful things about him online. https://kfor.com/news/washington-dc-bureau/white-man-seen-in... )
But on the flip side... what do you do when law enforcement completely fails?
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You mean the law enforcement in a foreign country that you are visiting for only a few days? The one that would require you to spend untold thousands of dollars, that you don't have, on flights if you had to testify in a court in a language that you do not fluently speak?
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My sister has been raped. The officers laughed. My wife has been harassed. The officers wrote some things down on forms and did nothing.
It achieves little.
This seems international though, this is not simple. As a victim doubly so, since you also have to combat your damaged pyche. In the end there needs to be an investigation, but sadly some uproar is needed for something to happen in cases like these.
Law enforcement will tell you to pound sand. Much (not all) of this kind of abuse isn't illegal, and DAs rarely want to prosecute the parts that are. It ruins their district's crime stats, it's difficult to prosecute, and many of them just don't care.
Not to mention that this took place while traveling to a foreign country.
Edit: I'm assuming that folks disagreeing with this post have had nothing but success with reporting sexual harassment and assault to police departments, foreign and domestic... Because the alternative assumption is a lot less charitable.
This is generally a good idea and the right thing to do, but cancel culture still exists for some reason. Probably it's because people do not trust conventional justice and do not believe in law enforcement?
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Yes because that has proven to be extremely effective! Amazing insight here.
Yes, I'm sure they'll treat it with the seriousness that they treat the decades-long ignored pile of rape kits.
The 2nd amendment still exists (for now). Protect yourself and eliminate a predator in 1 easy step. Please. For the children.
I don't blame the people who go public - I just wish that the rest of us would be a bit more hesitant to immediately signal boost them. (For example, I might avoid upvoting a story like this to the top of a tech news aggregation platform when the accused hasn't had time to respond.)
> I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author? Likely. A way to mobilize support? Certainly. But the method can be abused.
I feel like you made your own point with the story about your brother. Everyone below is ready to boycott the company which you basically named already.
> who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women
In general I don't like it as well because it could lead to abuse as we just read - but that's also not always black or white. In some cases it could be real romance or attraction between two adults, even if one has a higher status than the other (that's of course not what happened in this story! I'm just saying it could be consensual, even if the "high status" person uses his status just to get sex. Movie stars and rock stars do the same thing.