Comment by twodave
4 years ago
Awesome project Jacques! I saw a comment of yours on an article a day or two ago and was hoping to see this pop up soon.
I've found the most difficult thing about riding an e-bike is the other motorists have no idea how to react to you. You're not really a regular bicycle anymore due to your speed, but you're also not a motorcycle that deserves its own lane. I have at least one car turn in front of me almost every trip out just because they're misjudging my speed. I get honked and yelled at when on the road because folks get frustrated when I'm using the left-hand side of the right-turn lane as a bike path.
Sidewalks/bike paths tend to be a lot less safe in residential areas as well, since cars coming out of their driveways really don't expect an e-bike to come rolling through. I've learned to dramatically reduce speed in areas like this.
Aside from those things, I love it! I ride the e-bike whenever I'm going somewhere in range (I live in Florida so things tend to be spread out) and the weather permits. My bike gets about 80km which is more than enough for anyplace I want to go on a bicycle anyway.
> but you're also not a motorcycle that deserves its own lane. I have at least one car turn in front of me almost every trip out just because they're misjudging my speed. I get honked and yelled at when on the road because folks get frustrated when I'm using the left-hand side of the right-turn lane as a bike path.
Cycling is my primary mode of transportation, and I've found a couple things help with this:
1. Take the lane any time there's a chance of conflict such as a right hook, and when there is not enough space for a car to safely pass [1][2]
2. Use a headlight all the time, even during the day. This is what motorcyclists do, and when I made this change I noted a major drop in the number of drivers that turn without noticing me.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicular_cycling#Lane_control
[2] This page has descriptions of several types of collision, with example videos and how to choose a lane position that avoids them: https://iamtraffic.org/engineering/behaviors-and-risk/
I totally agree with this. I also find it’s best to take the lane in urban traffic where you’re not impeding the flow of traffic. The people I see getting in trouble/hurt are those (curiously, largely boomers) who insist on weaving around cars or moving up on the right without room. Just get in with the cars and move predictably.
In the USA the situation is much more risky than here.
I don't like riding in traffic mostly because drivers tend to have a short fuse for anything that isn't exactly at the limit, but on bike paths everything works just fine. The problem is that s-pedelecs are technically lumped in with the scooters, even though there is no throttle and there is absolutely no way you are going to sustain 40 Kph+ for anything but a very short period. But they're still pretty new and little by little municipalities are adapting and allowing s-pedelecs to use the bike lanes. What helps is that s-pedelec riders are extremely defensive. In town I simply reduce the assist to 'eco' and cycle with the rest of the bikes, and on the intercity bike paths I go as fast I conditions allow, typically 35 to 38 or so. On a longer trip that averages out to 33 to 35 Kph, which means a 1 hour car trip turns into a 2 hour bike trip, which is acceptable (and never traffic jams, which can turn that 1 hour car trip into a three hour car trip!).
I have an e-bike and I disagree with your assertions. I'm a fat asthmatic and I have absolutely no problem maintaining 40kph for long stretches of time on my bike. The fastest I've done on it (on a large hill but still) is 42.7MPH (~68Kph). Average cruising speed on flat land can easily be 30-33mph(48-53kph). Not all e-bikes are capable of this, but they are certainly not some kind of rare expensive impossibility - mine was less than 3000 USD.
My point is that you should be more ingenuous with your assertions of what the capabilities of these bikes are when communicating with people about it. Nothing makes people more skeptical than reading things that are just plain false from an advocate.
If something has that average speed capability, why is not licensed, registered, insured and held accountable as any vehicle would be? My 50cc scooter appears to have comparable speeds (maybe 10kph higher), and I wear proper armour & helmet, took the classes passed the test, am registered, licenses & insured.
That's my massive pet peeve & safety concern: I WANT to love e-Bikes, and all those sorts of things; and like a fellow poster, I've been riding both 500-650cc motorcycles and 50-125cc scooters for more than a decade so 2-wheelers are part of my life; but basically all the ads, shops, and salespeople over here are focusing on "You don't need license, you don't need insurance, you don't need to behave like a vehicle and obey the rules" as their main and primary sales point; and therefore the behaviour of riders is equally nonchalant. In the Toronto area (and it's important to be explicit because this is definitely different in different geographies), the relationship between cars and non-gas two-wheelers is charitably described as "strained" ("murderous/self-righteous hate" may be more accurate), and we all need to get better and understanding how we can co-exist and behave responsibly on the road.
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I'm curious - what ebike do you have that can easily cruise at 48-53 kph for extended periods?
In most countries that would be far above the legal limits imposed on ebikes. As a result, the ebikes available for purchase are all limited to 25-32 kph max and typically have power limits of 250-300 W. Since ebikes are a lot heavier, exceeding 32 kph for more than a few seconds is generally very difficult.
I don't think GP is being disingenuous with any of his assertions. In the US there might be ebikes with much higher top speeds, but jacquesm doesn't live in the US and neither do most of the other people on this planet. Most ebikes sold do exactly what he's describing.
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Most if not all electric bikes here in EU won't get close to those speeds, regardless of your fitness. I don't think it's even allowed.
If it's capable of doing 50KPH it should be treated as a motorcycle, away from other cyclists and pedestrians and the rider should have the same knowledge as a motorcyclist wrt to how to behave in traffic.
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I'm not sure why you would assume the author is being disingenuous. Your bike is almost certainly very different from the author's, and a more powerful motor is going to get you faster.
Fun fact/side note - power requirements generally scale with the cube of speed due to rapidly increasing air drag, so going at 50km/h is much harder (and requires a much stronger motor) than going at 30km/h.
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I'm sure there are other e-bikes, but those are not available where I live. The fastest here are the Stromers, they are a little bit faster but not exceptionally so and they also cut out at 45 kph, just like mine.
At a guess your bike outputs more power than is legal here.
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Power assist cuts out at different points, depending on design choice (and jurisdiction). Norwegian e-bikes, for instance, disconnect their power assist above 25kph and you need to pedal like crazy to go significantly faster than that.
I hope you realize you're one pebble or pavement imperfection away from breaking every bone in your body at those speeds.
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Very cool project. I'm currently evaluating whether I could commute 75km per day on a pedelec. In Switzerland there is a small bike manufacturer that makes long range pedelec : https://www.speedped.com/ (German only). It's very expensive though but the battery pack can be updated to something quite impressive.
You definitely could, but .ch is a bit more mountainous than where I live to put it mildly so it's not the distance that I would worry about but the elevation change. If that's within bounds you likely would be fine in three seasons but winter would be problematic, if not downright dangerous.
Since they are registered and used as mopeds, why not get an electric moped instead? Then you don't have to pedal and can sit more comfortable, maybe even with a windscreen.
I don't really see the point of pedelecs, unless you disregard the law and just pretend they are less powerful e-bikes. But then you'll lose it if the police notice.
Whatever you do in traffic, be very careful. I'm still driving a car and inner city traffic is basically slaloming between cyclists. If something goes wrong, only one of us will end up in hospital.
I do also ride my bike on weekends have have been riding a 650cc motorbike for 15+ years, so not at all against 2 wheels. It's just that most people on two wheels seem to have started very recently and they don't know how to behave.
As a cyclist I tend not to care so much about all the mistakes other people do. Realistically it's a very small percentage of people that are new in traffic, the problem is that you usually only see the mistakes people do. You will never see that cylist who changed their pace 20s ago to avoid you.
What has been shown is that people who travel by many different modes; cylists, pedestrian, motorcycle, car, bus etc, are usually much safer and better at navigating traffic. We are all still masters at judging people only based on feelings though that will probably never change.
I agree and provide examples.
As a cyclist I know that a road bike is faster than a car in a roundabout so when I drive my car I don't overtake bikes right before roundabouts: either they'll try to overtake me right where the road gets narrower (unsafe) or have to slow down behind me (and they don't have an engine). So I slow down a little and overtake them after the roundabout. Same thing when approaching a red traffic light. I'll have to stop anyway.
Some pedestrians keep the left on mixed bicycle / pedestrian roads (this is a drive on the right country) probably to defend against the occasional crazy cyclist. That's dangerous IMHO because as a cyclist I get surprised sometimes when I didn't realize they are walking or worse running towards me and I get suddenly closer to them than I foresaw.
And as a driver it's really difficult to see a bicycle with no lights at night (nearly all food deliveries here.) At least wear some reflecting clothes, but buy a rear light and charge it as you do with your phone. Front lights are important too. One of them nearly crashed into my left door on a rainy night because I didn't see him when I came out from a stop.
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> You're not really a regular bicycle anymore due to your speed…
The top speed (with assist) for class 1 & 2 e-bikes is well within the speed range of a regular bicycle. 15 MPH is considered a reasonable average speed for beginners, and 18-22 MPG is not out of the question with training. I've ridden my own e-bike past 20 MPH with no assist on occasion, and being a foldable model designed for electric assist it has a higher mass, smaller (20") wheel radius, higher rolling resistance (due to low-pressure 3-4" tires), and lower gearing than your typical non-electric commuter bike.
> … but you're also not a motorcycle that deserves its own lane.
Bicycles should have their own lane, whether electric or not, regardless of speed. It's not safe to share the lane with another vehicle.
I've tried driving over the top of the motor on this bike and it is almost impossible. I'm a pretty strong cyclist and I never managed more than 48 kph and that only very briefly. The drag is insane.
This is my biggest gripe with ebikes. On a regular bike, there's a nice curve where you can always push yourself a little more to get a little extra speed, tapering off a little as your speed becomes too high for your gears. On an ebike, you have the assist until you don't, and (especially in high power mode), the wall when exceeding the assist threshold is too extreme to be worth fighting.
I wish someone would make an ebike that gradually dials down the assist in the last 5-15kph (depending on max speed; my experience is mostly on a US class 3 bike that caps out at 45kph; I'd like it to gradually ease off starting at ~30kph).
Trying to exceed the 32 km/h limit on my ebike is similar. It's like hitting a brick wall when the assist drops out.
I assume it's a combination of the extra weight and the extra losses from pedalling the motor as well as the wheels (mostly the second part I think). Going faster on my non-electric mountain bike is significantly easier.
22 mph = 35 kmh. The average speed of Tour de France is 40 kmh: https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/tour-de-france/2016/gc/...
The average speed over the TdF is completely irrelevant, they cross the alpes. Generally on a race bike riding at 40kph if you have a slight tailwind is very doable over extended periods. If you are riding in a group of riders riding along at 40 is very straight forward, you can easily go over 50 (the fastest TdF stages are around 50 average over more than 180km distance. I can easily ride 30km/h on a regular commuting bike over extended periods (and I'm currently quite unfit).
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I wasn't talking about a long-distance race like the Tour de France. This is average speeds over a one-hour period. If an ordinary cyclist can reach those speeds, even for just a few minutes at a time, then cars need to be equipped to deal with it. The fact that an e-bike can sustain such speeds over a longer interval doesn't fundamentally change anything.
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> You're not really a regular bicycle anymore due to your speed, but you're also not a motorcycle that deserves its own lane.
Even human powered bicycles are entitled to their own lane. They are vehicles like anyone else.
Cars misjudging the speed of oncoming bicycles is a huge problem, even without pedal assist. I have added significant length to my bike commute to avoid places where cars turn across my path. I can take a 1% risk once in a while, but not twice a day.
This is rule #1 of bike safety: avoid risky situations.
You deserve your own lane, although the rules vary from state to state. Some states have FRAP (as far right as practicable), others (such as mine) say that a cyclist should take the lane. As a motorist, and cyclist, I cringe when I see a cyclist half-in and half-out of traffic. As a cyclist, I avoid streets with fast, congested car traffic altogether. Fortunately, my locale has a lot of alternatives for bikes, including some bike paths plus neighborhood streets.
When getting your motorcycle license here in Belgium they teach you to always take the lane. Ride 3/4 of the way in. If you give the car some space, they'll drive closer to you, try to pass and then get impatient & aggressive when they can't. If you take up all the space they'll usually just accept it.
Obviously rules for bicycles may be slightly different but more and more inner city roads here in EU are now clearly marked as bicycle friendly.
In the US, we have something called "sharrows" which are a picture of a bike, and an arrow, painted on the street. The arrow is supposed to show drivers the "line" that a cyclist can occupy. Coincident with sharrows, my locale has designated "bike boulevards," that are considered to be preferred for cyclists. I live on such a street, that is a favorite route for riding from a large residential area towards the center of town. So I get to eat my breakfast and watch the bikes go by every morning.
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> You're not really a regular bicycle anymore due to your speed
I don't understand, ebikes are regulated and the assistance will top at 25kmh in most EU countries, which is a very average speed for a bike without assistance.
Unless you're talking about speed bikes, that can ride faster but are regulated like a motorcycle with license plate and can't ride on cycle paths. So it's just an electric motorcycle that looks like a bicycle.
Electric moped that works like a bicycle.
Still, the "mo" in "moped" comes from "motor". It's a vehicle with a non-human power source, just like a car.
So I find it kind of weird that they're often allowed in bike lanes, especially where those are separated from pedestrians by just a painted line on a sidewalk (or sometimes even worse, explicitly mixed in with them!).
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* You're not really a regular bicycle anymore due to your speed, but you're also not a motorcycle that deserves its own lane.*
If you’re traveling at normal road speeds, wouldn’t you be a (electric) motorcycle? And require lights, tags, and insurance like any other motorcycle?
E-bikes in the US require pressure on the pedals to avoid being classified as vehicles (they’re cycling assist devices). That said, many people have retrofitted those assist systems with garage modifications that remove the need to push the pedals or even add a digital “throttle”.
Illegal? Sure. Are they going to get charged for it? Probably not.
>>Illegal? Sure. Are they going to get charged for it? Probably not.
Until they get into an accident and they discover that no insurance will cover them in any way because they were riding an illegaly modified vehicle. Also good way to find yourself 100% at fault in any collision.
No they don't. Federal class 2 ebikes are allowed throttle power without any assist.
That's how it is for S-Pedelecs in Germany.
In Finland you get heavy fines for going faster than 25km/h with motor-assisted ebike (if using motor). If you go faster, depending on the speed, you are fined based on taxes avoided on using this kind of vehicle, plus fines based on driving unlicensed vehicle, plus fines possibly driving without driver’s license and some other fines too.
I just discovered electric bikes lately, and started going to the office on an ebike instead of subway!! I then discovered how dangerous this can get especially at the end of the day when my brain is tired!
I thought of stop riding bikes, but then chose to have a life insurance instead
> I thought of stop riding bikes, but then chose to have a life insurance instead
This is how i treated cars, but it feels backwards. You're made right after the accident, but you're already dead.
> I then discovered how dangerous this can get
Presumably this has nothing to do with biking and everything to do with other motor vehicles?