Comment by davidw
4 years ago
> I'm not cool at all with basically motorbikes getting a free pass because they're disguised as bicycles.
As long as they'r not causing problems for other cyclists, they're still a big win in terms of transportation: way less carbon usage and occupies less space.
> As long as they'r not causing problems for other cyclists,
They cause problems. Maybe not every e-motorcycle rider, but most of them take full advantage of the power to out-accelerate other bikers and double the top speed of everyone around them.
Bike paths were design with typical cyclist speeds in mind. It's not uncommon to see a young kid flying down our local bike paths at 40mph or more on a modded e-bike, forcing all of the pedestrian and other cyclists to get out of the way as fast as possible. Worse, two e-bikers flying toward each other at 40mph in opposite directions is the same as one of them crashing at 80mph. Those speeds aren't really appropriate for bike paths, yet here we are.
I frequently run into young e-bikers or e-motorcycle riders on my local trails who are flying at unexpectedly high speeds. They're also tearing up the trails at a rate much faster than normal bikes because the rider has less control over wheelspin and is more prone to throttle out of corners than someone with a direct connection to the drivetrain.
I was a fan of e-bikes when they first came out, but the current incarnation of e-bikers and e-motorcyclists is quite bad in the real world. Again, not every e-biker, but many of the most prolific e-bike riders on my local trails are the same ones running modified e-bikes with too much power and manual throttles.
E-bikes should stay off trails. And in NL it is forbidden to use e-bikes on paths marked cyclists only, which is all of the scenic routes (the difference is the rectangular 'fietspad' sign versus the iconic blue one).
> Maybe not every e-motorcycle rider
I'm not sure if people are using these terms colloquially or if they are codified in law or generally accepted, so I may be making some false assumptions here: as an ICE motorcycle rider, using the term 'e-motorcycle' to refer to what is effectively a no-pedal bicycle dramatically overstates the capabilities and gives a false impression of what such a vehicle/device is.
While some no-pedal electric bikes probably can move at a decent clip, I have to imagine that they're much closer to pedal bike than motorcycle performance.
Not sure if you've heard of the Sur Ron or the Cake bikes but they're RAPID. I have a modified Sur Ron and it's way closer in performance terms to my Husky 701 than an e-mtb or similar (peak power to weight ratio of about 0.3hp/kg).
People put pedal kits on them to try and hide the fact it's basically a super light motorbike but in my experience it's not really suitable for riding on bike paths or trails.
Devices like in the OP are much more of a grey area as it's basically impossible to tell their power output / weight on an individual basis...
>but most of them take full advantage of the power to out-accelerate other bikers and double the top speed of everyone around them.
The full throttle mode of a eBike is limited to 20mph (specifically in the US). I have one, and even when in full assist mode have been passed by dayglo spandex wearing bikers like I was sitting still.
two e-bikers flying toward each other at 40mph in opposite directions is the same as one of them crashing at 80mph
- only if one of them weighs infinitely more than the other.
crashing into the other* at 80 mph.
Trails are a different matter, and I'm more skeptical of the really fast ones there. For getting around town, I think treating them advantageously, on the other hand, makes some sense, because of the reasons I cited above.
E-bikes on singletrack are incredibly destructive. So are horses, believe it or not. The analog MTBers I know take very good care of their trails.
> They cause problems.
Okay, but if they cause problems then that's already...a problem.
As long as they'r not causing problems for other cyclists
And if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its ass when it hops. "Other cyclists"? They're not cyclists, they're motorcycle riders, for starters. Now any jackass can zoom down the bike path at 25-30mph, but yeah, as long as that doesn't cause problems...
In Belgium we have pedelecs (max 25kmh) and speed pedelecs (max 45kmh). Pedelecs are catagorized as bicycles, and speed pedelecs as scooters, which require a license plate and all other stuff, including their proper place on the road.
In California it's 32kph (class 1 with pedal, class 2 with throttle) and 45 kph (class 3, pedal assist only)
Class 1 and 2 are currently allowed on all paved paths that bicycles are allowed on.
Class 3 does not require a license, may use the lanes on roads for bicycles, but not walk/bike paths. You also must be 16 or older to operate one.
Enforcement is currently nonexistent where I live. I regularly see people with ostensibly class 2 e-bikes going 50kph, having modified the motor controller.
Details like that certainly need to be worked out but such criticisms are usually made in a way that ignores the bigger picture.
Internal combustion engines contribute substantially to pollution and human-caused climate change. Motor vehicle accidents maim and kill lots of people every year yet fans of that form of transportation hand wave it off as irrelevant.
We don't have to speed blindly into the future on our current vector. We can change course. It will take work and creative solutions.
Not to say such concerns shouldn't be brought up but they shouldn't be brought up in a manner that sounds entirely dismissive of a new solution with a lot of promise. Ideally, it gets brought up in a more constructive fashion overall that is more conducive to meaningful engagement and less prone to simply making people mad or defensive.
I worry more about the added mass of the e-bikes in the case of a collision with a pedestrian, another cyclist, or a traditional motor vehicle. Potential speeds are relatively the same.
I own and frequently ride e-bike, and am an advocate. That being said, operating one should be done responsibly.
Perhaps your comment could inspire some useful discourse if it were worded less negatively?
You are strongly suggesting it yourself, that if not for the speed the difference would be negligible.
The other factor dividing the two realms in practice is control: in a bicycle the speed is directly a function of leg activity: does the "legs independent" motor-bicycle offer the basically same degree of control?
In pedal assist mode, the motor stops when you stop pedaling. So it is the same concept. In full throttle only control, obviously it is not even the same.
What's the difference between that claim and the claim "if cars which can go 120mph are legally considered cars then every jackass can zoom down the highway at 120mph"? The difference, of course, is that highways have speed limits.
You realize it is not hard for a cyclist to hit 25-30mph without motor assist, right?
At one time I was a Cat 1 (last stop before pro) bicycle racer. Races would typically spend hours at 25mph, so I have a pretty good idea of how hard it is. 30mph on flat ground, unassisted, for any non-trivial length of time? Yeah, damned hard even if you're in shape (and impossible if you're not). 25mph by yourself? It might be "not hard...to hit" 25mph, but to sustain that speed is going to be nearly impossible for the ones I see zooming by on their electric motorcycles. And it's going to be tough workout even for an in-shape cyclist. As another commenter points out, that's over 300 watts. If you can do that for your hour ride to work, go get a race license, you'll do well.
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I'd argue 25-30mph is not an easy cruising speed for most bike commuters. Unless I'm on the wrong forum and everyone here races Cat 1/2 in their spare time.
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In short bursts or downhill sure? Consistently in a commute? No, that is definitely atypical.
Do you ride bikes or mostly just e-bike?
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For 10 minutes tops or when falling down an embankment, sure.