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Comment by ichydkrsrnae

5 years ago

In your mind you imagine an HR professional planning your loop, interviewers that are genuinely interested in you, a hiring manager who's carefully read your resumé and has specific questions about your experience. You just (wasted|spent) five or six years and $200,000 on your four year degree. They better be interested, right?

Not.

In reality, a hiring manager clicked on your resume because an algorithm suggested it, told HR to setup a loop, and then promptly forgot you until the day you showed up.

If you're one of the lucky ones, your resume might have actually been read by a human.

The interviewers on the loop are probably not even on the team you'll join if hired.

There's a 90% chance they haven't even read the job requisition for the position you're applying for, if they could even find it. I've had to interview people blind without requisition or resume, and yes I did feel like an idiot both times, a rude one.

The person sitting across from you asking questions probably first learned of your very existence 15 minutes before it began; not because of disinterest, but because HR assigned the interview with that short of a window! re: x out sick, y in important meeting, etc.

All of this is true for at least 2 FAANGs and 1 MSFT in my experience as an interviewer and interviewee on over 50 loops over a decade.

What I'm saying is there is no spit or polish to the hiring process, not even at competitive companies, not even at the big ones, perhaps especially so because the assumption will be that you actually know what you're doing since you were bold enough to apply and even bolder to attend an interview loop at one of these "amazing" companies.

The musical chairs you experienced at Stripe, if explained at all, will be calendar conflicts, meeting overruns, sick employees, fire drills within, etc., all of those ambiguities that constantly interrupt IT. The show doesn't stop within because you're being interviewed on Wednesday. You are not the show. That $1000 suit you're wearing, the only suit you'll ever buy or ever wear ever again, bought you 60 minutes (or 20 at Stripe for Mgr of Mgrs).

The real explanation you will never know, but something as facile as the third guy on the loop not liking the fact that you have a full head of hair and he has none is actually sufficient, if you understand what I mean, that hiring is messy and opaque and human and, therefore, often ridiculous.

Would you believe one of these companies has had for decades now, as a core competency to hire for, “A tolerance for ambiguity”? I always loved that one.

Spot on. And even people that normally can be counted on to put in effort and keep their word, about 40% of those people have fallen apart as workers under covid.

I think you make some good points about the human part of the hiring process. Things happen - and hiring managers are often in a lot of meetings that run over.

But as someone who's been on both sides of the loop, I have very little faith in the hiring practices at them. And it comes down to something you said:

> What I'm saying is there is no spit or polish to the hiring process

This is totally unacceptable in my opinion. Devs spend months (or years) of prep to pass 1-2 days of rigorous whiteboarding, but HR can't work out a schedule and send emails / make phone calls properly? And don't even get me started about the shitshow that is the onboarding process at these megacorps. And these processes being total shitshows makes the failures intentional.

These processes are exactly the kind of thing I target for refinement. The process should be documented, it should be robust, and it should make things better for everyone involved.

  • I agree with you as an engineer. I disagree with you as a human being. Why be so formal during the interview process when the actual working environment will be anything but?

    If they can tolerate the ridiculousness of the interview process, then they might be able to tolerate the ridiculousness of actually working there.

    Ask anyone who's worked at any of these companies, and they'll tell you it's pretty fucking ridiculous a majority of the time. Even at the very biggest companies, IT shoots from the hip, and boy(!) does the interview process reflect that.

    If we built houses the way we build software, the entire world would be homeless.

    • That is a ridiculous cop-out. Dev work is very regimented for many of us; we have a half dozen regular agile meetings, deployment schedules, etc. The process for code getting accepted and deployed is well-established.

      It's very easy to establish a standard response time for getting back to candidates or tell them when you're going to make a selection, and to communicate and enforce a timeline for things like sending and signing documents. I could literally automate most of the process.

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Well it's seems like in 2021 with so much tech and automation resources available it should be possible to set up a process that does not ghost candidates.

  • You are implying this is intentional. That has not been established. For all we know, an essential person to the hiring process died from COVID, putting some real ghost in the ghosting.

    The CEO responded. He doesn't agree that this is norm, but he can't, can he?

    One person, one story, n equals one. 1 does not equal 10,000. Worse, hiring has x^n variables. He could have nailed the interview, astonished absolutely everybody into hiring him, only to be outcompete the very next day by the guy who wrote the book on managing managers at financial institutions.

    The attempt to amplify this as something oft-repeated at Stripe lacks evidence. “I've heard this” and “I've heard that” about Stripe is hearsay, secondary, questionable at best.

    Doesn't this post strike you as mildly disgruntled?

    • > who wrote the book on managing managers at financial institutions

      I've been around and worked with people who have written books, maybe not "the" books (one of them might have been, actually) - and honestly, one of the people who wrote a book was one of the worst developers I had worked with. The other was good but extremely lazy.

      The one who wrote what might have been "the" book on a topic was (in my eyes) a fraud, he was fired shortly after he was brought on to consult, along with the CEO and marketing dept which brought him in.

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    • That's not a fair response. I clearly see what you're saying. Of course you're right. It's only decent they close the loop, but the reality is it's messy.

      LCA might have a policy specifically precluding Stripe from communicating anything with regards to an unsuccessful interview.

    • >The CEO responded. He doesn't agree that this is norm, but he can't, can he?

      I think, the CEO responding has no impact at all, as the options for him is to reply exactly in the way he responded to this thread or not reply at all. Either way, he can not admit anything going wrong within his company, so it is meaningless.