Comment by hnthrowaway0315
4 years ago
Not a console player, can someone explain why consumers want to downgrade their console(s)? I Googled a bit and it seems people would like to have more vulnerable to hack their devices, but why did they upgrade in the first place? Is it forced upgrade?
Nearly forced. once the console downloads the update, it will be applied automatically upon reboot.
The alternative is to never connect to WiFi, ever, and some do that.
Generally, consumers would want to downgrade because older versions have vulnerabilities that are fixed in newer versions. these vulnerabilities allow console owners to do what they want with their hardware, and gaming communities have shown Nintendo time and time again that if it is possible to use game hardware for game piracy, it will be widely used for that purpose.
Those of us who want a neat standardized hardware platform to hack on without pirating anything are in the noise floor for companies like Nintendo, so we have no representation among neither pirates nor the console manufacturer.
I've been out of "the scene" for many years now, but back in the day, I had a Flash Cart[0][1] so that I could have all (literally all...) the Nintendo DS games at hand. I was a naughty naughty pirate.
The flash cart also added some really neat features that were missing, such as: the ability to take screenshots, ability to save and restore a game at any point, ability to load cheats like infinite ammo and such.
Nintendo was/is at war with cart users and any update to a DS with a flash cart stood a good chance of either killing the flash cart or rendering it inoperable until a new firmware was released for the flash cart (which may never happen). There's a long and great history here. And if you want to know more, the GBATemp wiki[3] is a great starting point.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_cartridge [1] https://wiki.gbatemp.net/wiki/3DS_Flashcart_Comparison [3] https://wiki.gbatemp.net/wiki/Category:Nintendo_DS
This is partly why I'm really excited about the Steam Deck - it's in the same form factor and is running a Linux distro that you're free to modify.
Switch does not forcefully upgrade on reboot, but you might be required to have at least firmware version x to run game y.
I Googled a bit more and found the history of Nintendo v.s. fans is fascinating...
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The Amazon kindle os does not allow downgrades, not sure if it’s using fuses or not.
In that case it isn’t about access to pirated content either—people want to be able to modify it for basic features the company has neglected to provide.
Ah I see, thanks. Looks like Nintendo is pretty serious about this (by suing a lot of hobbyists and blowing fuses like this).
Efuses are not uncommon nowadays.
Most TVs have efuses to stop software rollback.
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Not about a console, but sometimes manufacturers or developers change the UI of the system or valued apps.
Examples:
Sony removed Linux OtherOS from the Playstation 3 firmware because even though it didn't have a GPU driver, they were worried it could be leveraged to do whatever. There is no value in running Linux on a PS3 today, but there was once.
Apple notably between iOS 6 and 7 changed their design language from skeuomorphic to flat white "metro" style. If you don't like staring at a glaring white screen, too bad. But more importantly, when it comes to drivers, esp. graphics, they can introduce eyestrain if something isn't as good. Issues with sound, networking, etc. for all sorts of platforms. The Intel Management Engine which is inside your PC (AMD has a counterpart) is a another CPU and another OS that you're not allowed to shut off (or access). Sometimes firmware updates will come out preventing you from rolling back to a previous version that didn't have a bug with the hardware in this or that because of the precious Intel ME backdoor.
> There is no value in running Linux on a PS3 today, but there was once.
The most famous example from my point of view:
https://www.win.tue.nl/hashclash/rogue-ca/
I was thinking of that time the US Air Force connected almost 2K Sony PS3 systems running Linux as a kind of super computing cluster: https://phys.org/news/2010-12-air-playstation-3s-supercomput...
> why consumers want to downgrade their console(s)? I Googled a bit and it seems people would like to have more vulnerable to hack their devices
Or to get back the features you had originally paid for but got removed, like Linux OS installs on PS3s.
You don’t control initial version you get when you buy it (either new or second handed).
Often you also first use stock before you learn about/want to start hacking it.
Thanks, yeah with hardware there is a lot of complexity. I guess if someone owns a Switch with original firmware, it might be sold with a premium?
Don't know about Switch, but I recently sold a PS4 Pro on eBay and I got a ton of requests to please at the firmware version because they wanted a particular old version that can be rooted
> why did they upgrade in the first place?
New games and game updates often require Switch system updates. Two examples:
Animal Crossing DLC requires a system update.
Rocket League seasons usually require a game update.
Thanks, yeah this is pretty much forced upgrade, either upgrade and play, or don't play at all.
You can still play if you don't upgrade. You only run into an issue with new titles that require a higher firmware. But considering new firmwares can add new features like the ability to boost the CPU clock during loading you also can't reasonably expect them to ensure every game works on every firmware.
If you already have a game and it runs today on the current firmware you can at least keep playing it offline by just skipping the system or game update.
This also applies to routers with custom firmware. Sometimes models manufactured after a certain date will already contain the patches from the factory.
Typically a vulnerability is found on an older version of the software that can be used to attain kernel level access, and a very simple hack is needed in later versions to force an upgrade to an older version of the software.
To prevent the use of older versions of the software, later versions of the software will burn fuses as they surpass versions, preventing them from ever being used again on that device.
I upgrade because the new game I want to play won't play if I don't. Also the on console store will refuse to work.
Games on cards have a minimum firmware version. The firmware won't let you launch them without updating first.
Thanks, yeah this is pretty much forced play. I guess it is also possible (technically) to modify the code of the game to remove the firmware requirement, if it is just a version check?
They're doing some cryptographic operations to prevent modified games from being loaded (probably a signature, but I'm not 100% sure). One of the uses for a rooted switch (or any other console I suppose) other than piracy is to play modded games. You can find youtube videos of people doing all sorts of crazy challenges in popular games and many of these challenges require modding the game.