Comment by perardi

I don't understand when did the ability to choose a product fitting your preferences become a bad thing on HackerNews

Because so many on HN have been indoctrinated into the "scale at all costs" mentality.

It demonstrates the difference between HN and the real world.

On HN, if you can't serve a billion people, your product is niche. In the real world, billions of people earn a very nice living making niche products.

It's why so many people on HN don't understand Panic, or its PlayDate. They don't understand artisan anything. They've forgotten the whole hipster movement, which still exists in pockets of the world. They can't grok that there are companies that have been in business for hundreds of years making products one at a time — by hand.

"X doesn't scale" is HN for "I know nothing about how the world works."

Much of that can be chalked down to the fact that Apple doesn't have that many models they actively sell, so the models that they do tend to have way more than any individual Android model, and that the mini is the cheapest iPhone in the 13 line. I know a few people who went for the mini because it was marginally cheaper.

While I agree with the sentiment of your post, I'm not sure if Pixel are the best example, as they have demand that they don't satisfy.

For example in Spain, the Pixel 6 Pro was only sold for a few days in February, then sold out, then returned a few days ago - so it only seems to start being consistently available now, and it's a 2021 phone. Oh, and only the 128 GB model is sold here. I had to ask an Australian friend to mail a 512 GB one to me!

And at least, they do sell it here. In most countries, you can't even buy it.

Compare to iPhone where you can get every model with every storage capacity consistently, in Spain, and in the overwhelming majority of countries in the world.

I've even seriously considered switching to iPhone for this very reason, by the way.

NRE costs on a phone are easily measured in the $Millions. Your niche has to either (a) have enough volume to dilute those costs; or (b) be willing to pay a lot more per unit to cover them.

It's not a "bad thing" about HN or American perceptions -- it's economic reality: it just isn't cost effective for the big incumbents to pursue, and it's (likely) beyond the scope of a grass-roots, Kickstarter-style effort.

> These "slow iPhone 13 mini" sales are more than all Google Pixel phones sold in a year. Think about that.

That really doesn't say much. Google has never figured how to sell hardware, nor shown the will to learn. If Google was trying to sabotage the sales of the Pixel line, it could probably not do a better job.

Agreed. I hope the rumors are false and that they'll continue to make the Mini. However, 5% does not mean much if market research proves that those people would buy a regular iPhone anyway if they drop the Mini.

I think there is also some competition with the iPhone SE. Even though the Mini is not intended to be a budget phone, it is 100 Euro cheaper than the non-mini. So, I can imagine a chunk of people would buy it for its lower price if the iPhone SE didn't exist. Even more if you consider that the Mini actually has a larger screen than the SE.

Hold on; the math is not that easy.

For one - most of the iPhone Mini sale is because of 'Halo effect', die hard fans who anyway would have bought an iPhone, bought the mini version. An Android phone maker will not have that brand pull or halo effect to establish a new category, so it would be no where near that 10M number.

Second, iPhone or Mac devices are known for hardware and software integration. That translates among other things to good battery life (similar to RAM. Apple never talks about RAM).

iPhone Mini has been weak in battery department [1], one of the factor in its low sale as compared to bigger device. A Mini Android device will have mini batteries, that means it will have no chance in h* to last through the day - the minimum requirement in this day and age.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/oct/20/apple-iph....

5% seems quite small and not worth the trouble. It might be worth it if a small phone generated 5% in additional sales, but most people buying a small iPhone would likely buy a normal-sized iPhone if no small version was available rather than making the switch to Android.

>That is more than enough demand to cover the NREs and costs of making a phone.

Then why is Apple dropping it ?

But you're not Apple though.

I think this is the main reason, and why only Apple can afford to make a small slab phone. They can still make some margin with 5% of a massive number, while others can't make any.

Foldables seem like a better compromise here, and hopefully more like the zflip/razr get in this $700-800 range with stock android, good cameras, and decent battery life. The zflip 3 has been sold for $800, just give me stock android and I'd be a buyer. I'd be ok with a slightly slower processor if it means a better battery life, but within 10-20% of a flagship. Between a $450 6.1 inch Pixel 6a, or a $700-800 folding phone, it's going to be kind of tough to compete with a smaller slab phone if it's going to have to make more compromises to stay small.

I'd love a Nexus 4 sized phone again, but these aren't bad options, if you want small, go folding, or get a 6a. I'm sure the mini is a good option if you're ok with iOS.

I don't think it's as much a culture difference as you think, more like the environment where we use the cars.

I'm from Europe, living in bigger European city, and I have a small car (3-door RAV4). I bought it so I can drive and park easily in the city and go up hills and mountains when I leave the city once a month.

And if I'm honest, that is the best car I could afford. I see lots of rich people with bigger and bigger SUVs cruising in the city in Germany: G wagons, BMWs, Audis, Volkswagen Touaregs, Porsche Cayennes everywhere.

I went on a road trip in the US, rented an SUV that would be huge and impractical here, but there, it actually felt small. The roads were wide, traffic wasn't bad, parking was easy. I loved it.

If I lived in the countryside in Europe where I need to transport stuff for my ranch/farm (and if I could afford it), I'd definitely consider buying a pickup truck.

The same goes for properties. The reason why I lived in a 30sqm apartment with my wife was that is all I could afford while living in the city, close to good job opportunities. I would have been obviously happier if I could have a 300sqm house.

Didn't the oversized phone craze originate in Asia?

American here with a Smart Fortwo, but I may be an outlier. Dead simple to park in the city though, and I hear lots of people complaining about parking, so… I don’t know why everyone buys those enormous cars here. :)

China loves the Pro Max - it outsold the Pro there [1], and my understanding (based largely on hearsay, so take it with a grain of salt) is that they generally love large phones over there.

1: https://www.thenationalnews.com/business/technology/2022/01/...

But admittedly here in Germany SUVs are also on the rise, even though we have that "environmentally conscious" reputation.

> Europeans and Australians

Australians will jump at the largest, cheapest Soniq TV JB Hi-Fi sells. Likewise (with 'local' brands) in the UK.

Weird, all the europeans who visit me in the US talk so much about how great it is to have this much space.

Agreed. I love my 12 Mini, and my SE's before that. I'm also anti-case so the phone looks extra small compared to most. Fun to have someone take our photo with the phone, cause they always ask how ancient it is and are shocked to hear it is newer than the phone they have! Non-existent marketing doesn't help

When I bought the 13 Mini, it wasn’t even an option on their /iphone landing page. I only saw it when I clicked into the store.

Edit: Yup, it’s nowhere to be seen on apple.com homepage. They don’t push it at all.

My girlfriend liked the mini, but didn’t get it partially because it doesn’t feature the 3 cameras. As long as the mini is positioned as a down brand phone, even for technical reasons, some of the interested market is excluded

Don't see the same with my family, girlfriend has a 13 Pro Max, mum and sister have the 11 Pro Max.

Not only smaller hands, but smaller pockets.

Every female member of my family has complained about devices being too big.

My wife's solution to iPhones being too big was to upgrade all of her handbags and to buy flouncy dresses with pockets.

Wanna trade families? Please?

Funnily, cars suffer from this same exact issue, but worse! Just like expanding phone screen size leads to suboptimal software on small screen sizes that devs don't target any more... expanding car size leads to safety compromises for sedans. If my 2000s Civic gets T-boned by a 2022 F150, I'll probably die, simply because the 2022 F150 will crush my car like a tank rolling over a tin can. When I try to drive around in my sedan at night, I'm constantly blinded because truck manufacturers don't account for low seat heights any more with beam cutoffs.

Who would buy a sedan any more when you're screwed over this way? With phones and vehicles, we're stuck in this prisoner's dilemma situation where larger sizes lead to less desirability of small sizes, and the cycle repeats over and over again.

Same thing happens with public transit/car usage -- as more people use cars, public transit thins out, deals with more traffic on the roads, and becomes scarier because there are fewer "normal" people on public transit to make you feel safe from crime.

Curious if there's an research on how to escape from this kind of death spiral -- my suspicion is that the only real way out is regulation, because otherwise there's no way to overcome the self-reinforcing impact of these decisions.

Ford has phased out sedans[0] for the US market and are instead chasing higher margin trucks and SUVs. The exception is the Mustang.

0: https://www.motorbiscuit.com/ford-exec-says-this-is-why-it-s...

Isn't that sort of what Ford decided (except they also still make SUVs)? AFAIK, they stopped making sedans for most markets.

Side note, It is just RAM now and not Dodge Ram. RAM is a brand under Stellantis just like Dodge, Citroën, or JEEP.

Do you still use your phone as a phone? Because I personally stopped using the phone features long ago, and I suspected many are in the same basket. So even for a minimalist/backup device, it would still need to be a "smart" phone, for note taking, calendar sync and what not.

Anecdotally, I wanted a Mini, but the lack of top-end cameras being available made me hesitant. I ended up buying a SE, since the neither phone was exactly what I wanted, but the SE was so much cheaper.

> for a smartphone specifically, there's a direct relationship between battery size and device size, and battery life is a really valuable convenience

As the largest consumer of energy is the display of a smartphone, you don't need the same battery size to get the same runtime in a smaller phone. Also by increasing the depth of the smartphone by just 1-2 millimeters you can offset the smaller area available for the battery.

> The iPhone 13 mini has a 2400 mAh battery, the 13 has 3200. 33% more battery capacity is a lot, and at 2400mAh I don't think the mini doesn't survive an entire day of relatively heavy use without a charge.

So make it 3mm thicker?

> fueled rumors that Apple would kill the mini for iPhone 13. They didn't.

Apple plans pretty far ahead and moves slowly. When a phone goes on sale (like the iPhone 12 mini) the successor is already pretty far along in the pipeline, and I think it's unlikely they would cancel the successor based on a few weeks of sales data. They would at least wait until after christmas, at which point the 13 mini was probably already almost ready, at which point it probably doesn't make sense to cancel it anymore.

So if Apple nixes a product because it lacks demand, I would expect that to be after two years of sales. The decision might have been made already after the first year of iPhone 12 mini, but the decision would not affect the iPhone 13 lineup, only the iPhone 14 lineup.

You could see this slow product cycle when Apple failed to jump on the big phone trend. When the iPhone 5 came out, they underestimated the market for huge phones, and it took them two years to course correct and jump on the phablet bandwagon with the 6/6+. (And they had a phantastic quarter when they did since everyone has been waiting for a big iPhone for two years)

Not the same size, the comparisons are misleading as both those phones look small compared to the 13 max. The SE has a form factor that matches many Android phones, small-phoners (like me) want to go smaller than that if possible.

https://www.phonearena.com/phones/size/Apple-iPhone-12-mini,...

I had the previous SE from years back and it's still my preferred size, the current mini is significantly bigger than it.

As an aside, I had to switch to the 12 mini as the old SE started becoming unusable due to its age. I did switch to a Pixel 4a temporarily but that was too big for what I wanted and traded it in as soon as I could.

> Sometimes I almost feel like companies sometimes intentionally sabotage experimental products just not to deal with the headache of supporting more options in their supply chain.

Except companies like Samsung throw out dozens of new models per year, which all differentiate only marginally, and none of them gets a SFF while maintaining higher quality of features (i.e. no cheap phone with 720 display and such).

Sometimes they get it right, like with the Samsung A40 from 2019, only to not pursue the sales for a true successor. Heck, me and a lot of my friends and relatives bought an A40 because of its size and fantastic display.