> “I asked, ‘Have I broken any policies? Have I posted anything on TikTok that is a security concern?’ And they said not at this time I have not but it could happen at any time in the future, so they’re just not going to take that risk.”
Utterly nonsensical.
It could happen at any time in the future applies to every single person with access to any private information.
> She shared that she was nervous about disclosing too much information because she had to sign “a bunch” of documents upon her dismissal
You do not have to and almost certainly should not sign any paperwork when being fired, laid off, or even leaving voluntarily. The exception here is the company may offer you a severance package to sign some paperwork waiving your right to sue. Even then if you can afford it it's a good idea to run it through a lawyer first. But signing stuff for free? Don't do it, you have nothing to gain.
Last time I was laid off, I got $90K to keep my mouth shut. And you know what I did? I shut the hell up, and I'm not even all that thrilled to post about it anonymously here. It was all fairly amiable as well.
Yep, that's exactly what I mean. Paid to sign, sure thing, probably want to run it by a lawyer first to make sure the terms aren't too crazy and your getting a good deal, but for free? Forget it, nothing they are going to ask you to sign will help you, only them.
Even when being fired for cause severance is sometimes possible. All depends on how much they want those papers signed.
It's bad optics (and I personally think the company can piss off), but I don't think they technically broke the letter of the law. Colorado doesn't have good faith exemptions to at-will so as long as it wasn't a protected class thing, I think they can do whatever they want, AFAICT
I'm not a lawyer but does at will mean anything in cases where you are dismissed for an illegal reason? Basically your company can fire you at any time but if they fire you because your black it doesn't matter if in theory they could have fired you because you wore red on Tuesday if in fact they actually fired for being black.
If its protected to talk about your salary or wages and they fired her for doing so its illegal.
Why does it matter what they or any employee was doing in personal time anyway? So what, they have social media presence. A claim by the company that the employee was fired for _having_ a TikTok is still over the line. It's not their goddamn business.
The difference is it legal to fire someone for using TikTok. It’s just not believable, which makes it clear that the firing was illegal (discussing wages is one of the few things you can’t be fired for).
"She didnt get fired for disclosing her salary. She got fired because her employer feels they can't risk her disclosure of other, more sensitive, information on the future. If her immediate reaction to any exiting news is to shout it out for all the world to hear, what will happen if they are working on a project that they dont want a competitor to know about, or if they get a classified govt contract, or a myriad of other situations I could envision a tech company needing/wanting security. They decided that the risk she posed wasn't worth it."
Fire if that happens then? You can’t preemptively fire someone for something they haven’t done nor even attempted/planned to do.
Telling others your salary is allowed and should be encouraged, it is not a security concern at all nor does it imply you are going to release any actual confidential information.
So this person has at the very least demonstrated that they will broadcast to the public details of their financial relationship with their employer. Not just to their friends, or their co-workers, but to their company's competitors and to their manager's co-workers.
By that logic, they should presumably be firing everyone who lists their job on their resume/linkedin.
After all, if her immediate reaction to exciting news, such as getting a job, is to tell evetyone about it, how can you trust what she would do with more serious information.
> “I asked, ‘Have I broken any policies? Have I posted anything on TikTok that is a security concern?’ And they said not at this time I have not but it could happen at any time in the future, so they’re just not going to take that risk.
This sounds absurd. How could a company punish an employee when the employee didn’t do anything wrong, just because they believe the employee might do something wrong? I’d love to hear an official response from that company.
>How could a company punish an employee when the employee didn’t do anything wrong, just because they believe the employee might do something wrong?
IANAL, but at-will employment means you can be fired for any reason (minus a narrow set of protected reasons). In this specific case it will not go well for the employer if it goes to court, since federal law protects employees disclosing their salary, but a company could conceivably have a policy of "you can't use tiktok".
> a company could conceivably have a policy of "you can't use tiktok".
How does this apply here? In this case the employee has been informed that they haven’t broken any policies (“I asked, ‘Have I broken any policies? Have I posted anything on TikTok that is a security concern?’ And they said not at this time I have not”).
Meta note: it's been disappointing seeing a bunch of NY Post articles on HN, not sure why this is particularly newsworthy and even if it was, it seems available elsewhere.
Why would you tell strangers a) your real identity b) where you work? This is why I think TikTok is moronic. That said, it's sort of insane that this is a legal reason to fire someone, insane that employers can still claim it's "illegal" to share your salary with co-workers etc.
It may be protected by law, but in my opinion, why the hell would you want anyone who doesn’t need to know your income, know your income if you can choose not to disclose it?
To quote that great philosopher Shoresy: “So dumb”
Yeah, this was also my first thought. Granted, TikTok and Bytedance although they exist in the US are basically operated just like their 996 sweatshop brethren in China.
There definitely is a social media trend not only on TikTok but on YouTube, Twitter, etc. of people publicly disclosing their salaries.
There might be some amount of clout-chasing and humblebragging to this, but it also fits the spirit of the trend towards pay transparency as expressed by tech and/or young workers online.
I wonder what would have happened if she had shared her salary on LinkedIn.
I'd imagine defending the argument "because you have a LinkedIn account" would be pretty tough as upwards of 90% of employees including senior management works likely have one. And it's often crucial in the process of getting a job. Probably this company also has a box where you can apply and import your LinkedIn details when applying. That would make such a dismissal indefensible.
> “I asked, ‘Have I broken any policies? Have I posted anything on TikTok that is a security concern?’ And they said not at this time I have not but it could happen at any time in the future, so they’re just not going to take that risk.”
Utterly nonsensical.
It could happen at any time in the future applies to every single person with access to any private information.
Right. Let's just be honest: they came up with a plausibly-deniable excuse to fire her for doing exactly what she did.
Sounds more like the company realized they messed up by not having an explicit social media policy for employees.
She would have been fired for this sort of thing at most large companies without getting approval first.
If they didn't have an explicit policy before hand though, then firing her over this was definitely a step too far.
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> She shared that she was nervous about disclosing too much information because she had to sign “a bunch” of documents upon her dismissal
You do not have to and almost certainly should not sign any paperwork when being fired, laid off, or even leaving voluntarily. The exception here is the company may offer you a severance package to sign some paperwork waiving your right to sue. Even then if you can afford it it's a good idea to run it through a lawyer first. But signing stuff for free? Don't do it, you have nothing to gain.
Last time I was laid off, I got $90K to keep my mouth shut. And you know what I did? I shut the hell up, and I'm not even all that thrilled to post about it anonymously here. It was all fairly amiable as well.
Yep, that's exactly what I mean. Paid to sign, sure thing, probably want to run it by a lawyer first to make sure the terms aren't too crazy and your getting a good deal, but for free? Forget it, nothing they are going to ask you to sign will help you, only them.
Even when being fired for cause severance is sometimes possible. All depends on how much they want those papers signed.
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This is a pretty open and shut case right? No one can really say she was fired for anything but revealing her pay.
A judge isn’t going to buy “we fired her for having a TikTok, which she could have used wrong“. Most of their employees probably do!
It's bad optics (and I personally think the company can piss off), but I don't think they technically broke the letter of the law. Colorado doesn't have good faith exemptions to at-will so as long as it wasn't a protected class thing, I think they can do whatever they want, AFAICT
*edit: I guess discussing wages is protected(?) (https://www.jacksonlewis.com/resources-publication/colorado-...) - but they didn't pick the reason, so I guess it boils down to how good lawyers are
Discussing wages is protected both by executive order and by federal law with the National Labor Relations Act
https://jacksonspencerlaw.com/salary-discussions/
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I'm not a lawyer but does at will mean anything in cases where you are dismissed for an illegal reason? Basically your company can fire you at any time but if they fire you because your black it doesn't matter if in theory they could have fired you because you wore red on Tuesday if in fact they actually fired for being black.
If its protected to talk about your salary or wages and they fired her for doing so its illegal.
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Why does it matter what they or any employee was doing in personal time anyway? So what, they have social media presence. A claim by the company that the employee was fired for _having_ a TikTok is still over the line. It's not their goddamn business.
The difference is it legal to fire someone for using TikTok. It’s just not believable, which makes it clear that the firing was illegal (discussing wages is one of the few things you can’t be fired for).
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One comment is spot on:
"She didnt get fired for disclosing her salary. She got fired because her employer feels they can't risk her disclosure of other, more sensitive, information on the future. If her immediate reaction to any exiting news is to shout it out for all the world to hear, what will happen if they are working on a project that they dont want a competitor to know about, or if they get a classified govt contract, or a myriad of other situations I could envision a tech company needing/wanting security. They decided that the risk she posed wasn't worth it."
Fire if that happens then? You can’t preemptively fire someone for something they haven’t done nor even attempted/planned to do.
Telling others your salary is allowed and should be encouraged, it is not a security concern at all nor does it imply you are going to release any actual confidential information.
So this person has at the very least demonstrated that they will broadcast to the public details of their financial relationship with their employer. Not just to their friends, or their co-workers, but to their company's competitors and to their manager's co-workers.
2 replies →
>You can’t preemptively fire someone for something they haven’t done nor even attempted/planned to do.
You can fire someone for no reason at all in much of the US. It's employment-at-will.
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If there is no law against employees revealing or discussing their salaries, then I feel this was just an excuse and it should be tried in court.
This is false. It’s not illegal to discuss your salary. Discussing a classified government contract is illegal.
Absolute false analogy.
By that logic, they should presumably be firing everyone who lists their job on their resume/linkedin.
After all, if her immediate reaction to exciting news, such as getting a job, is to tell evetyone about it, how can you trust what she would do with more serious information.
> “I asked, ‘Have I broken any policies? Have I posted anything on TikTok that is a security concern?’ And they said not at this time I have not but it could happen at any time in the future, so they’re just not going to take that risk.
This sounds absurd. How could a company punish an employee when the employee didn’t do anything wrong, just because they believe the employee might do something wrong? I’d love to hear an official response from that company.
>How could a company punish an employee when the employee didn’t do anything wrong, just because they believe the employee might do something wrong?
IANAL, but at-will employment means you can be fired for any reason (minus a narrow set of protected reasons). In this specific case it will not go well for the employer if it goes to court, since federal law protects employees disclosing their salary, but a company could conceivably have a policy of "you can't use tiktok".
> a company could conceivably have a policy of "you can't use tiktok".
How does this apply here? In this case the employee has been informed that they haven’t broken any policies (“I asked, ‘Have I broken any policies? Have I posted anything on TikTok that is a security concern?’ And they said not at this time I have not”).
Meta note: it's been disappointing seeing a bunch of NY Post articles on HN, not sure why this is particularly newsworthy and even if it was, it seems available elsewhere.
How does it matter if it's a news article relevant to hn audience or a blog article from somewhere else?
Not everyone scans the internet every day
What company was this? If we are going to be fickle about at will employment, I would not like to take the financial risk of working for them.
Why would you tell strangers a) your real identity b) where you work? This is why I think TikTok is moronic. That said, it's sort of insane that this is a legal reason to fire someone, insane that employers can still claim it's "illegal" to share your salary with co-workers etc.
I'm not a lawyer, but the article points out that disclosing your salary is protected by law.
> ...disclosing her salary is federally protected by law under the National Labor Relations Act
It may be protected by law, but in my opinion, why the hell would you want anyone who doesn’t need to know your income, know your income if you can choose not to disclose it?
To quote that great philosopher Shoresy: “So dumb”
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Yeah, this was also my first thought. Granted, TikTok and Bytedance although they exist in the US are basically operated just like their 996 sweatshop brethren in China.
There definitely is a social media trend not only on TikTok but on YouTube, Twitter, etc. of people publicly disclosing their salaries.
There might be some amount of clout-chasing and humblebragging to this, but it also fits the spirit of the trend towards pay transparency as expressed by tech and/or young workers online.
The transparency angle is nothing short of an excuse to brag.
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>Why would you tell strangers a) your real identity b) where you work?
Let me introduce you to linkedin...
I wonder what would have happened if she had shared her salary on LinkedIn.
I'd imagine defending the argument "because you have a LinkedIn account" would be pretty tough as upwards of 90% of employees including senior management works likely have one. And it's often crucial in the process of getting a job. Probably this company also has a box where you can apply and import your LinkedIn details when applying. That would make such a dismissal indefensible.