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Comment by phpisthebest

3 years ago

You say there is nothing wrong, but then go on to list things that are in fact wrong.

You think the problems are a mistake or otherwise something to be "fixed" the products are working exactly as both the government and the manufacturers want them to, and it has nothing to do with "intel agencies"

Having your entire life "cloud connected" and them complaining about privacy, is like opening a window then complaining that the house is drafty.

I love home automation, not a single component of my home automation is cloud connected, if more people would accept, learn and support non-cloud systems, services and protocols everyone would be better off

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phpisthebest

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Dylan16807  3 years ago

> You say there is nothing wrong, but then go on to list things that are in fact wrong.

They say there is nothing wrong with the technology, but then go on to list things that are in fact wrong with the not-technology.

  • phpisthebest  3 years ago

    No they ignore the problems with technology ( unencrypted cloud connection / data storage, or lack of zero knowledge systems ) and move the problem to political or other realms.

    The problem with the technology is it allows the company, political power, or police to access the data with out user permission, that is a technological problem, belief that just passing the correct laws to resolve this technology problem defy's recorded history and logic

    • oittaa  3 years ago

      > unencrypted cloud connection / data storage

      [citation needed] because basically every Google (and Nest) product have used pretty decent protocols since Snowden leaks.

      1 reply →

smcin  3 years ago

> I love home automation, not a single component of my home automation is cloud connected, if more people would accept, learn and support non-cloud systems, services and protocols everyone would be better off

  • better if you could please provide links to how-to starter guides on how to do this

  • I share your concerns, but one obvious huge drawback to a home system that's 100% off-cloud is security camera footage: how do you prevent a violent home invasion or burglary where the first thing they do is at gunpoint force you to show them where your server is so they can disconnect/destroy it? Not having a solution could easily be a $50,000 mistake or worse. Perhaps you just live in an area where violent home invasions are not a regular occurrence. It's not just about porch pirates stealing packages, or thermostats.

  • Handytinge  3 years ago

    Off cloud in this case pretty clearly implies "not on somebody elses cloud where they can access it".

    You can still have off site backups and recordings on an innumerable count of hosting or storage solutions, encrypted with your own keys.

  • phpisthebest  3 years ago

    >>how do you prevent a violent home invasion or burglary where the first thing they do is at gunpoint force you to show them where your server is so they can disconnect/destroy it?

    I would love to see a source of this being a common tactic of thieves, home invasion in general are extremely rare as most thieves are cowards and want to attack soft targets i.e unoccupied homes. Then of the home invasions I am aware of, I know of ZERO where the "first thing they did" was force the homeowner to show them the location of the storage server.

    Even if that is a "common occurrence" which I doubt, what stops a home invader from cutting off the internet before the attack? and many of these cloud connected cams are wifi, there are several very easy attack vectors to knock them offline. I think your strawman is weak and easily defeated in a number of ways

    >>> better if you could please provide links to how-to starter guides on how to do this

    Some of the Technology I use, or sources I visit to look for new things

    https://www.home-assistant.io/

    https://unraid.net/

    https://blueirissoftware.com/

    https://tailscale.com/

    https://old.reddit.com/r/selfhosted/

    https://github.com/awesome-selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted

    • smcin  3 years ago

      I clearly said "violent home invasion", not just simple "burglary". "Violent home invasion" means both a) somebody was in the home and b) there was violence involved (whether simple assault, tying up, or (rarely) kidnapping); in some cases it was the occupant retaliating against the criminals. I never said this was a "a common tactic of [all] burglars"; I did imply that violent home invasions is a small but non-negligible subset. [2] and [6] below give examples.

      Basic statistics: [1]: The US averages ~1 million burglaries/yr, 3,300/day, or one every 25.7 seconds. (Most burglars are unarmed; most properties are unoccupied when robbed; most burglaries don't involve violence; most burglaries only last <10min; only 12% of home invasions are planned in advance; 88% of burglars may be robbing to support their drug habit; 85% are not professional burglars)).

      See [2] for an up-to-date dataset of individual incidents involving recent deaths or injuries in violent home invasions, listing no. of casulaties and deaths.

      See [3],[4] for aggregate US statistics from 2017-2020, citing FBI/DOJ.

      Some complicating factors in crime-tracking statistics [5]:"Elusive statistics":

      > "The term "home invasion" isn’t standardized across jurisdictions, or universally defined; or necessarily used in crime-tracking data. Some jurisdictions use it and some don’t, but there is no universal definition or dataset. What would be called a home invasion is often reclassified as the eventual crime committed by the suspect — a robbery, a physical attack or so forth."

      According to [4]

      > 7. Only 7% of home burglaries involve violence. > A State of the USA report found that 7% of these (on average) resort to violence on a yearly basis; though, only a few (12%) burglars had used a firearm. The most common type of violence present in burglaries is a simple assault, with 36% of cases resulting in only minor injuries and psychological trauma.

      I see little point in arguing about how "rare" or "common" this is; personally I know people this happened to. You could argue that when we subtract cases where the occupants shot the burglars, and exclude that some of the fatalities are homes of drug dealers or people who are known to carry large amounts of cash, that the overall number of injuries law-abiding-occupant home invadees who were threatened, injured or killed is "comparatively low".

      For example, [6] reporting from ABC7 on a recent string of violent home invasions in South San Jose, CA; this sort of thing is admittedly rare:

        - *"5/31/2022 home invasion in the 600 block of N Capitol Ave: 5-6 suspects bound an elderly couple with belts, brandished a handgun, assaulted the victims and stole valuables.*
  - *The suspects, using a stolen vehicle, [then] committed a second home invasion in the 1000 block of Summerdale Dr, where they held a male victim and his 15-month-old child at gunpoint... threatened to shoot the child and kidnapped the victim, forcing him to go to his bank to withdraw money. The suspects also stole various valuables from the home."*

      > what stops a home invader from cutting off the internet before the attack?

      Nothing (other than speed, preparedness and competence; home invasion crews do not in general act like Ghost Recon). But that's missing the point; the truncated footage will still show when and how the home invasion happened, the number of criminals, their general description, may also show vehicles or weapons.

      None of us are interested in debating strawmen; please just tell us your suggested best-practices in home security for self-hosted/non-cloud solutions.

      [1]: https://www.bankrate.com/insurance/homeowners-insurance/hous... "Bankrate.com: Burglary statistics 2022"

      [2]: https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/query/2109008e-ddd0-4318-... Gun Violence Archive: Home Invasions [i.e. the subset of home invasions that involved a gun]

      [3]: https://comfyliving.net/home-invasion-statistics/ "21 Important Home Invasion Statistics to Consider in 2022" (cites statistics from recent years)

      [4]: https://policyadvice.net/insurance/insights/burglary-statist... 27 Alarming Burglary Statistics for 2022

      [5]: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/oct/25/michael-mo...

      [6]: https://abc7news.com/south-san-jose-home-invasions-robberies...