Comment by apexalpha
3 years ago
I think you're forgetting the main reason: the group of people using it to communicate is really small and shrinking every year.
The only large group of people who still primarily use SMS to communicate person-to-person is Android users in the USA.
Every other country has settled on either Telegram, WeChat, WhatsApp or FB Messenger, or other niche apps. These apps work on both iOS and Android and often also Windows. I haven't sent an SMS in probably 12 years. I don't know anyone who has.
It's only in the US that iMessage is so prevalent that Android users have to use SMS, the only other way of messaging iOS devices. And the US is quickly becoming a de-facto iOS only country. It already has more than 50% market share, even 80% among young people.
With the US going (almost) full iMessage and the rest of the world having already settled on another app there simply no point to supporting SMS.
SMS is still rather common here in Europe. Even if a ton of people use whatsapp and such SMS is often a safe option to initiate with or something trough which you get certain kinds of automated messages like appointment reminders or verification codes.
I think that differs very much per country. The last time I have received an SMS from a human in NL must have been a decade ago. In many European countries, sending SMS was quite expensive, leading to early and very wide adoption of WhatsApp.
It's definitely in use in Europe, but it depends. I and my wife use SMS extensively, that's simply because we both use very cheap phone plans without a built-in data plan - i.e. no internet unless we have wi-fi (the pro side of that is that the yearly phone expenses is in the (equivalent of) low tens of dollars, not hundreds of dollars). When we're networked we use Line messaging.
My wife's boss communicates with all her employees by SMS (mass SMS - works like group communication, both ways).
AddEdit: Airlines send their notifications and links to boarding passes etc. via SMS. Dentist and doctor appointments, other public office appointments (e.g. my upcoming passport renewal), document notifications (from pension fund insurance companies for example), public warnings ("Toxic fire nearby - close your windows"), and more, are via SMS where I live.
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Most European countries have had unlimited SMS way before messaging apps where a thing
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That was ages ago. Most people have unlimited text messages these days (SMS, not MMS).
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Definitely not per country: I regularly use SMS from NL.
> In many European countries, sending SMS was quite expensive, leading to early and very wide adoption of WhatsApp.
Yes, but data tariffs were also expensive, while you can send SMS with regular (no-data) tariff.
NL is rather small sample to, say, larger countries like Poland that use SMS quite frequently. And depending on carrier, SMS texting most likely will be completely free with most of the current plans.
Signal's rationale is just Signal's own reluctance to build an umbrella messenger. And given they do drop SMS, still won't introduce usernames it's very hard to actually sell it as a WhatsApp replacement.
And now, with WhatsApp supporting password protected cloud backups and up to 2Gb attachments, I'd say Signal will loose the userbase it acquired during the hype and Musk tweet.
In fact, during 2020 Belarus protests, Signal did nothing to support it's own operations during internet semi-blackout in the country, while Telegram tweaked their server side to provide at least some possibility to know what was happening in big cities. So what are the values of Signal — I don't even know. But they sure did support pillagers and rioters in the USA.
To be even more brazen, Signal is not Apple. They stopped innovating. And they don't have enough political power to convince people do things the new way. Even their zero knowledge server is worthless. Check out the story on FBI cracking down on the leader of some right wing proud boys type of armed group. They tracked him and then compelled to give up access to Signal.
Their innovation stopped at providing solid cryptography that was adopted by most decent messengers already. And they aren't visionaries with cancelling SMS.
UPD: the funniest part is that the service that drops the SMS support still relies on SMS to provide account registration.
This is just an unprecedented level of sarcasm.
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Probably per person than per country.
I really hope SMS keeps on going - it's as a solid of a protocol as email is - no matter where you are, as long as there is a mobile network, you can send a text message.
It's also not secure (e.g., https://krebsonsecurity.com/2021/03/can-we-stop-pretending-s...).
I second this. SMS is still great for rural areas where mobile internet is non existent
Not sure that can be said as a blanket statement for the whole of Europe. In the UK SMS isn't common at all anymore.
Not common isn't quite right. Ofcom's report shows that SMS use is shrinking, but it is still an average of 51 messages per user per month.
Source https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/222401/...
SMS decline is probably inevitable though.
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Does anything let you configure 2fa via WhatsApp yet? I know there are logistics companies starting to offer it as an email alternative for notifications, but for most automated comms and for contact initiation, SMS is still the standard.
I think it would be more accurate to say that ongoing communication via SMS messages isn't common at all any more. They're like a protocol negotiation handshake.
I suspect if you book a health appointment in the UK if your mobile number is listen increasingly you will get a SMS notification via Accurx[0].
I do still occasionally get work conversation initiated via SMS rather than WhatsApp especially if that comes from a phone which is associated with a task or job. Like the out of hours mobile phone which is moved between people.
[0] https://www.accurx.com/
Same in Eastern Europe, where even mobile calls are giving way to WhatsApp, Viber, etc. This is also a common way to call many businesses
I concur, SMS is DEFINITELY still common in Europe. Removing support for SMS would mean all of family will stop using the app now, this is completely silly and US-centric...
Automated messages are pretty much the only thing I get via SMS. Other than the occasional message from my mum who likes to randomly flip between WhatsApp and SMS depending on which way the wind blows.
It's still used in that sense but it's very rarely used for actually sending texts between people.
Basically, SMS used to be a big revenue driver for operators. That business has dried up almost completely. The notion of paying per message is just completely gone. So, operators stopped caring about SMS a long time ago. In the same way, call minutes are increasingly less relevant. It's all about 4G and internet now.
> The notion of paying per message is just completely gone.
Not in Hungary, you still have to pay per message here unless you choose the most expensive plan.
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I can only offer a personal anecdote. In Sweden the only SMS messages I receive are marketing spam and appointments from various places (from my hairdresser to dental appointments). Everyone else is either on various messaging apps (FB Messenger, Telegram) or chat apps (Slack, Discord)
What country do live in? I haven’t received an SMS from a human in probably ten years; I live in Europe and everyone uses Signal/WhatsApp
Which countries? It has zero use in the UK (apart from for stuff like parcel deliveries and 2FA). We're 100% WhatsApp.
No we're not.
There's a lot of people here claiming that their personal use is representative of their country, or of Europe as a whole. I get SMS from a lot of people. You don't, probably because a lot of the people you know are on Facebook/Whatsapp and it's more convenient for them to stay with that platform. That doesn't mean that they don't use SMS for anyone else. It just means that you are bubbled.
My experience of mobile messaging the UK is different to yours as might be expected in a country of 60+ million.
The stats show a significant drop as mobile data became cheaper and richer services became available, but still quite a lot of traffic.
I suspect that the people I see using Nokia and Samsung dumb phones will continue to use SMS, so traffic will fall to a sustained tail.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/271561/number-of-sent-sm...
2FA, NHS, gov.uk reminders, a large %age of my social group...
WhatsApp is a closed protocol owned by Facebook. It has its uses but relying on it is a mistake.
It's down from the peak, but 40 billion SMSes were sent in the UK in 2021. I would be staggered if this number was majority B2C/2FA.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/271561/number-of-sent-sm...
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I send maybe one SMS per year, not every year, when I think a person could be offline or in low signal areas. SMSes get where data don't.
I receive dozens of SMSes from banks with one time passwords for 2FA and payments notifications, from delivery companies to notify me about progresses in my orders plus some spam. It's easier for them to use SMS than anything else because every phone receives SMS right out of the box.
A bit weird for the "I don't use it so who cares" view to take a firm hold here.
SMS is:
1. not controlled by a single company
2. a different network than the internet
3. a fail safe for people who don't use apps or are unable to at a given time for some reason (inc 2fa)
4. a fail safe for a "small group of people" who are suffering the consequences of a natural disaster.
Though perhaps not economically feasible for certain companies, supporting redunancy is as much an honorable goal as privacy.
And totally readable and accessible by any third party
I tried to imply that redundancy instead of privacy would be the reason to support SMS in my last sentence.
Is this the comment you would give when someone says they intend to take a notebook with them when travelling in addition to their phone?
Can you please explain how you or any other third party (beyond my phone provider) can read my SMS at will?
and? If you want encryption you can add it yourself. GPG should work for example. And there was some apps that encrypt messages over whatsapp and co, there should work for SMS too.
I'm from Europe and use SMS only, I don't get it how having a dozen of messaging apps and remembering who uses what is better than a simple SMS that I can send to absolutely anyone with a phone..
Pretty much this. I only ever send out SMS if I am the one who initiates the conversation on a phone, but other people send me messages on other apps.
However most of my instant messaging is done on a computer using discord, so I might not be in the prime user base of these apps
SMS is still used in France too.
> I don't get it how having a dozen of messaging apps and remembering who uses what is better than a simple SMS
Indeed, especially now that Telegram is taking off by times in Europe (in Belgium / Spain / France at least Telegram is getting used by a lot of people) and that some people now refuse to use WhatsApp.
In addition to appointment reminders from doctor/dentist/notary/whatever and delivery tracking numbers I still exchange SMS with quite some people.
It's not as if it was exactly hard to open and reply to a SMS you just received from someone: takes exactly the same time as answering using WhatsApp or Telegram.
> Indeed, especially now that Telegram is taking off by times in Europe (in Belgium / Spain / France at least Telegram is getting used by a lot of people)
Interesting, here in Germany, almost everyone I know has Signal and WhatsApp with some people using only one of them. Telegram I encountered from one US American living here, and from people into conspiracy theories.
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I guess that varies from country to country. In Spain, it's WhatsApp for everybody with Telegram recently making inroads for specific topic groups.
SMS is used by companies to send notifications and asking for confirmation, even (ouch!) banks. I haven't sent one in more than a decade.
Same
>The only large group of people who still primarily use SMS to communicate person-to-person is Android users in the USA.
BS. I visited city I grew up recently, met with a few (9+) people (25-32 years old) and only one of them had WA, most haven't heard about Signal, everyone simply uses SMS. It's simply multiplatform, works with their gradmas and no one wants to install __another__ app to send messages to people. No one cases about RCS that will be used to push QR codes and ads, people will use SMS for its simplicity and reliability. I'll be dropping Signal and moving to WA once Signal drops SMS support.
If you're going to bother migrating and presumably taking people with you, why migrate to another company's proprietary service, rather than an open protocol?
Or (bluntly): why not Matrix (and/or XMPP)? What makes WA so much better that you're willing to go all-in with this company?
>If you're going to bother migrating and presumably taking people with you, why migrate to another company's proprietary service, rather than an open protocol?
I'm not taking anyone with me, they already have Signal and WA and obviously SMS. I'm uninstalling Signal and not recommending it again. I can already message Signal contacts using WA or SMS. I don't need Signal for that, and I'm not keeping 3rd messaging app.
network effect, as much as I like Matrix idea there is no chance it can compete with WhatsApp
now give me Matrix client with basic SMS support (I don't need even MMS) and I'm installing it immediately to replace my dedicated SMS app
I did same love with family as poster, from Signal with family, WhatsApp and SMS just to WhatsApp/SMS combo though already years ago after PIN nagging
but… WA also doesn’t have SMS support?
But I have 40 contacts on WA, and 4 on Signal? Everyone on Signal is also on WA and SMS.
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>Every other country has settled on either Telegram, WeChat, WhatsApp or FB Messenger, or other niche apps. These apps work on both iOS and Android and often also Windows. I haven't sent an SMS in probably 12 years. I don't know anyone who has.
SMS is big in Europe (yes, Europe is not a country. I just mean "dozens of countries in Europe"). All courriers have plans with SMS focus.
I'm on a prepaid plan. I had the maximum plan (unlimited data, unlimited voice) for two decades but with home office, I spend most time indoors so I've switched to a <10% cost prepaid plan which works mostly fine.
Some months my data volume doesn't last till the end of the month. I use SMS instead of the Signal protocol then.
Yes I might be a minority, but if you're not the market leader, cutting out minority groups of users will not make you more successful.
What's your mission: Giving secure communication to everyone or become the next WhatsApp?
Your data is completely switched off when you run out? In Europe it would be illegal to market this tariff as a "flatrate" and typically data plans are just reduced in bandwidth once your volume is used up.
> In Europe...typically data plans are just reduced in bandwidth once your volume is used up
"Reduced" is a very kind characterization, even if it's literally true - in my experience (with Vodafone and Three) this means ~64kbps which makes even messaging apps functionally unusable.
Since I started traveling more, I use my eSim slot for a ~7€ data-only plan from one of the discount MVNOs just to avoid being caught in this situation.
No, but it's very unreliable and Signal doesn't work (Germany, Deutsche Telekom, Android, Mi 11 Ultra).
<<It's only in the US that iMessage is so prevalent that Android users have to use SMS, the only other way of messaging iOS devices. And the US is quickly becoming a de-facto iOS only country. It already has more than 50% market share, even 80% among young people.
Do you have any data to back it up? I have trouble believing that, but I am admittedly biased against Apple devices.
> With the US going (almost) full iMessage and the rest of the world having already settled on another app there simply no point to supporting SMS.
I think you just described the core of the problem: Signal has a very US-centric view of the market, and has no clue that SMS is actually still relevant elsewhere, and a low-hanging fruit for capturing user-base.
I have most of my friends using some messenger app and based on that I run―because I basically have to run―Whatsapp and Signal myself. But those are all people I know. What would you use but SMS when contacting people you don't?
Typically, if I try to reach someone but they don't answer I'll follow up with an SMS to explain what I tried to call for. If it's a co-worker, or an acquaintance, I'll send an SMS to make sure they receive my message. SMS is more reliable, doesn't require you to know which apps the other party runs, and it comes through to the recipient as SMS is a basic service in the telecom networks.
When I get to know a new person there's a transition to "oh, you're on $APP too", and I might starting moving non-urgent messages to $APP. But if you don't know the other party well or there's a question of reliability, what is an alternative backbone for messaging if not SMS?
> What would you use but SMS when contacting people you don't?
Here in the UK, whatsapp is the default first try, at least with anyone I've interacted with. The dog groomer even messaged me on whatsapp to tell me dog is ready, completely unprompted.
Where are you getting 80% among young people? A quick google search only returned numbers around 55% among younger people. That's a looong way from a de-facto iOS only country.
Recent thread[0] about it.
0. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33169684
woah those shares are very high, thanks for digging it up.
> Every other country
That's obviously not true. I live in a European country where a lot of people are still using SMS.
In Australia, SMS is still fairly widely used for messaging people you're not in usual contact with (to be fair, Facebook Messenger and Instagram are far more popular for communicating in general if you've added each other).
> the group of people using it to communicate is really small and shrinking every year
Group of people using it to communicate might be small, but group of people using SMS to get verification codes, messages from delivery company about scheduled delivery, doctor appointment reminder etc. will be for sure 90% or more phone users at least in Europe
So I find it very stupid to say nobody use SMS, because pretty much EVERYONE use them, just not to communicate with other, but to receive messages and you still need some app to receive these messages. So while I can communicate with almost everyone through Whatsapp I still need to use SMS app almost every day and I'd rather have all my communication consolidated in one app than must switch between apps to check the codes or other stuff, man I wish Whatsapp supported at least receiving SMS, actually I'm pretty sure that would be enough for majority of people which don't really need to compose message.
> Every other country has settled on either Telegram, WeChat, WhatsApp or FB Messenger, or other niche apps. These apps work on both iOS and Android and often also Windows. I haven't sent an SMS in probably 12 years. I don't know anyone who has.
This is a big call. I live in a country where SMS is still standard. Most communication with friends and family is done by it.
Can you please provide a source?
At this point, my entire family, including my 80 old grandmother, use Telegram for communication. I often find myself having to visit her house to show her how to “report spam and leave” random crypto groups she gets added to.
this really speaks to the urgent need of making interoperability legally mandatory for the bigger actors so one isn't socially forced to use one or two applications that are provided by a private actor
The answer doesn't always have to be larger governments and more oversight.
Users can switch to another OS if they really cared that Apple refuses to use industry standards, hamstrings their own mobile browser to bolster app sales, and violates antitrust laws with their ban on third party browser rendering engines.
The reality is that leveraging closed networks to gain effective monopolies (with all their known harmful effects) is a winning strategy with little counter strategies.
Users cannot switch to another OS because if they do they won't be able to communicate with social circle. This is also completely artificial because the networks have otherwise pretty much the same feature sets and are only distinguished by their accreted userbase.
Concurrent cannot compete because they can't gain enough users to get a critical mass
I wager that no single entity should have so many captive users.
Regulation is clearly in order
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I'm in the US, have android and use sms a lot, almost entirely to communicate with users of "dumb phones".
In fact, all the ios users I communicate with do it over whatsapp or telegram.
Today I had an ios user sms me asking if he could send me a voice message. I honestly have no idea if that would have worked but I directed him to whatsapp (that he already had installed) and it was frictionless thereafter. I expect I'll never see another sms from him again.
> The only large group of people who still primarily use SMS to communicate person-to-person is Android users in the USA.
This is precisely why RCS and MMS support aren't important. I just need Signal to deliver SMS authentication codes and notifications. For person-to-person communications I'll use Signal protocol.
Don't forget 2FA from shitty European companies! And pizza delivery notifications!
Jokes aside, I see SMS as a useless protocol; because it cannot be used for identification, and neither can anything be encrypted nor verified without another communication channel.
It's also not in the power of the end user to decide whether or not their number gets reassigned, blocked, or does work at all. Most US people seem to think that it's normal to have "one" number for years on end. For the rest of the world, it's not true.
For example: If I don't use my SIM card to make phone calls (which get billed) for 6 months, it's gone and reallocated to a different person.
> Most US people seem to think that it's normal to have "one" number for years on end. For the rest of the world, it's not true.
Uh, I’m from Germany and had the same mobile number for over 20 years.
Up to relatively recently (a few years ago) it was not possible to transfer numbers from one provider to another.
Even two years ago, I had to actually change a phone number because I couldn't transfer my number from one provider to their own reseller. O2 Scheißladen.
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I'm not sure what you mean about a reassigned number? Do you mean that people risk getting a new number, whether they want it or not? Because that shouldn't be an issue - I believe all of Europe (at least EU) demands that the customer can transfer their number to a new provider or whatever, whenever they want. So maybe you mean something else?
> Do you mean that people risk getting a new number, whether they want it or not?
It's a ̶̶u̶s̶e̶ pay it or lose it thing. AFAIK, typically applies to prepaid/pay-as-you-go SIMs, not on contracts.
For my case, it is that I have to make a 12EUR top-up every 3 months. The top-up credit will expire if I don't make another top-up on time. After a few months on zero credit, you get you incoming calls blocked. And after a couple more months, your SIM is de-registered.
Transferring your number is always possible, yes. As long as you're still the registered owner of the SIM number.
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> And the US is quickly becoming a de-facto iOS only country...
I love that "there are two big players in the market with a literally 50%/50% split" means that iOS dominates. iPhones have always been popular among teenagers, if Millennials are any indication it levels out over time. It's just one of many weird demographic splits, not some grand trend. People need to not fall into the fallacy that "something is popular with young people" means that thing will remain popular as they get older.
iOS is more popular among women, young people, liberals, professionals, upper-middle and high-income, people with post-secondary education, and urbanites.
As well as the inverse of the above Android is more popular with people who work in IT, and people who follow tech news.
SMS is still very common in India.
You're forgetting that there's more than just person-to-person SMS.
No I'm not. I receive automated SMS messages all the time. 2FA codes, parcel tracking, my appointment at the dentist reminder etc...
But that's pointless to have inside the Signal app, which is for person-to-person communication. I wouldn't even want those messages in WhatsApp even if it could do it.
I don't see why an SMS app (or Signal) should be unsuitable for M2P.