It's sad that it took legislation to make this happen, but I can see why.
I worked in a pseudo-Apple-store during the height of the 30-pin dock connector and I sold so many cases, speaker docks, charging cables, and all sorts of weird accessories that were built for the 30-pin connector.
Then Apple switched to Lightning. It was better in every. single. way. And yet people got burnt. There was so much hardware that was now incompatible that people understandably didn't recognise the benefits of the Lightning connector.
This mattered far less for other companies because of the lack of brand recognition. If someone switches from one non-Apple device to another non-Apple device, they don't necessarily expect to keep using the same cables, and back in the day every manufacturer had their own. The expectations of Apple were higher only because of that brand recognition.
Sadly, the fact that so many got burnt in the Lightning transition means that there is _still_, a decade later, a resentment among many. I've spoken to so many people who don't like Apple devices, who when asked why say things like "they're always changing their cables". It's obviously not true, but to most people who aren't familiar it might as well be.
I think this even burnt the MFI manufacturers. 30-pin compatible speaker docks and other accessories were very widely available, but there are far fewer devices made for Lightning. There are other factors here like the rise of Bluetooth and Wifi enabled devices, and the demise of the iPod, but I think manufacturers also knew customers didn't want Apple specific connector hardware anymore – I know I didn't.
Ironically, the long-delayed USB-C transition has probably had the opposite effect. In attempting to compensate for the public view of Apple changing connectors, they've become somewhat known as being the company with the wrong connectors. It's sad, given Apple's core role in defining the USB-C spec, but it's understandable.
I look forward to a USB-C iPhone. It's a shame it took legislation to make it happen, but I understand why given how long customers' memories are about the 30-pin connector. As much as we'd like to think USB-C was the "right answer" several years ago, it's a bit more complicated than that.
1. As you mentioned, most accessories have moved to wireless. I still (usually) use a physical cable for charging, and I guess I have a 3.5mm dongle, but I think those are the only two things I've plugged into my iPhone in years. Docks with a physical port, in particular, were super popular 10+ years ago and don't really exist anymore. People won't be throwing away speakers.
2. They aren't switching to a new proprietary port, they're switching to a standard port. Which means there's already a thriving ecosystem of accessories that will now be usable with iPhones (some of which people may already have, for use with their other devices!)
I'm more cynical in my interpretation of Apple's motives: I think they just wanted those licensing dollars
> I'm more cynical in my interpretation of Apple's motives: I think they just wanted those licensing dollars
They've switched every other non-iPhone device to USB-C. The more plausible interpretation would be that they don't want to piss off a core constituency of customers who've built up 10 years of Lightning cables. The number of people who care about standardizing on USB-C are definitely less than the vocal folks who will now complain loudly that Apple just forced them to buy a whole bunch of expensive new cables.
At least USB-C is more durable by far than Micro USB was, even if it's not as durable as Lightning. Nothing can fix the stupidity of USB-C cables, though. What a mess.
I’m more hopeful that they’ll actually include drivers for those devices (probably not). It’d be nice to hook up a screen via hdmi instead of needing an Apple TV. Or plugging in a dock with regular mouse/keyboard attached.
I already use my laptop charger for giving the phone extra juice when I'm sitting, now my wife will be able to do the same with her iPhone. Same in the car, only one cable.
Something I found interesting when discussing this with my wife..
All my friends are tech heads and champing at the bit to have usb-c in their iPhones.
But when she asked me why people were mad about the switch to usb-c it took me by surprise. Then she showed me a lot of online responses from non technical people who see the change of port as annoying and wasteful because now all their stuff won’t work without adapters.
I think it’s really interesting to see the difference in mind sets between different demographics.
But even those non-tech people should have some USB-C cables lying around at this point
Android phones have used USB-C cables for many years. The Nintendo switch and PS5 controllers use USB-C cables. Chromebooks use USB-C cables. The alarm clock I just bought uses a USB-C cable. My keyboard uses a USB-C cable. Every MacBook made in the last five years (and most iPads sold in the last couple years) uses a USB-C cable.
It's very possible, if they're nontechnical, that they already have cables that will work with it and don't even realize it (which to be fair might be its own problem, but it's certainly a smaller problem)
USB-C appeals to techies, people with an engineering mindset, because it's an elegant solution. It's one connector, with graceful handling of different use-cases from charging, through peripherals, to high-speed high throughput data transfer.
But practically speaking, I've bought several HDMI adapters, had a hard time choosing a mouse that had USB-C a few years ago, have bought a new charger, lost MagSafe on my laptop. This is how most people view it, and it's hard to convince them otherwise, and rightly so!
I know many people that mentally only perceive connectors as "the iphone cable" and "the android cable". The "Android cable" could be anything from micro-usb to usb-c to old propietary connectors of old nokia and motorola.
To this people this change effectively removes what's familiar and understood for something unknown, but I think it will still be for the better if eventually they will only perceive it as "the cable" that just works with pretty much anything.
Those "non technical people" want the same thing that the "tech heads" want: One type of cable that is compatible with all their devices. They just don't necessarily realize that they have already organized their lives in a way that excludes mismatched cables.
I would be just as happy to have everything switch to lightning. I really don't care what it is I just want all my cables to be the same.
One time my mother ordered a power cable for an old coffee maker, I think a Revereware percolator or something similar. I remember she found one specifically for it and waited for it to arrive so she could test this and re-sell it. I took a look and it's just a regular ATX computer power cable (type C13 but I had to look that up), and I was like, I've got a pile of those and could just have given you one.
People just don't realize what are standard cables vs what are bespoke for their application, and this sort of thinking has bitten me personally as well.
As someone in the Apple ecosystem looking out, I disliked that the 30-pin connector replaced FireWire, but understood it was thinner. That connector then stuck around for around 10 years.
Look at nearly every other device manufacturer when the 30-pin connector was being used - Palm, Motorola, Samsung, LG, Sony, etc. all used proprietary connectors that were not only incompatible with each other, but often didn’t work between devices from the same manufacturer. There was no devices to replace (except chargers), because no accessory makers would take the risk of 30 SKUs to support devices that wouldn’t be sold in 6 months and whose bespoke connectors would vanish with the device.
Late in that evolution, device makers decide to standardize on micro-USB, but even that “standard” didn’t last as long as the 30-pin connector.
Lightning was almost universally better (unless you wanted audio and power easily from the same connector), and it also lasted for around 10 years.
USB-C hasn’t even been around as long as lightning, so even though most devices have standardized on it, it has a shorter product life than Lightning has had. Even now, it’s still a mystery to me whether a USB-C adapter and cable will charge my device or fry it.
I’m hopeful that USB-C and whatever charging standard du jour sticks around for a while. The physical connector seems robust enough (though Lightning’s single metal block with no flimsy plastic blade seems pretty optimal), and small enough (again, Lightning).
The idea, however, that Apple is always changing cables when they’ve had two (2!) over two decades is an amazing feat. It’s suboptimal that they were proprietary, but the idea that there is a mountain of e-waste because of them ignores how long they were compatible and the effect of their ubiquity had on accessory makers.
I welcome a new USB-C world, but really think the issues with the 30-pin and Lightning cables ignore everyone else in the industry. I’m also concerned that when USB-D is released, will this legislation prevent device makers from adopting it for stupid legal reasons. This seems specifically like something that should be left to markets.
I suspect that Apple has been in progress of moving things over to USB-C for a while (see the recent Apple TV and iPad changes). They have already moved off of USB-A chargers completely, moving onto USB-C chargers.
My understanding is they are also pushing the upper limits of what lightning charging cables are rated for, my suspicion is that it can't support PPS, so the lightning port is now limiting them both in charging speed/flexibility and in data transfer.
But in some markets (like the US) you have more lightning-charged iPhones than android phones. It is a lot big cost for their customers to bear, throwing away a decade of chargers and cables when Apple is not really going to be able to express it as an improvement to them - for instance, most phone users don't use the data channel at all, getting updates and backing up data with the cloud.
I find it odd people think their reluctance has been to defend profits on some sort of lightning cable ecosystem. Their margin on phones is likely $100+. Their margin on the licensing for a third-party cable is likely below $0.50.
I'd argue this regulation is great for Apple, because it gives them a scapegoat. Apple then claims didn't necessarily _want_ to cost their customers a bunch of money, but the EU mandated it. So Apple is going to go ahead and make the change worldwide.
But hey, look, at the same time we improved phone charging speeds and look how fast we can transfer ProRes media you captured with your phone now to your computer? Feel free to tack those new official charging cables and data transfer cables along with any chargers you need at purchase, if you don't have any already.
> Apple switched to Lightning. It was better in every. single. way.
This is pedantic, but the 30-pin connector did have one minor feature Lightning didn't -- the interface supported a design where it needed to be squeezed to be released, like DisplayPort or RJ45, and a small number of products took advantage of this to build very secure mounts. When switching to Lightning it was no longer possible to build a 3rd-party accessory that had such a secure attachment to the phone.
EDIT2: that page has a comment "This cable came with my Ipod Touch and all i have to say is , what an improvement. it was a wonderful idea to do away with those silly squeese tabs. all i have to do is give it a quick yank and its out." so maybe I'm not imagining things?
There were two different models I believe, one that had the squeeze grip and another that didn't require it.
I believe the design was changed because the original squeeze cable had a tendency to cause damage to the iPod/iPhone/iPad when inserted and then yanked/pulled out without squeezing. At least, that's what I remember.
I stayed at a hotel in Italy a few years ago, and the radio alarm next to the bed _still_ had the 30 pin connector. No doubt that there are probably a ton of people still annoyed at Apple.
Yep, Apple probably wanted to switch to USB-C earlier but you can see why they also wouldn't want the backlash. Now, they can switch to USB-C and also blame the regulators when people are mad, so this is kind of win/win for them.
You're skipping how Apple made Lightning a closed standard and charged big royalties for it. I can reasonably point to that licensing as the reason a legitimate Lightning to USB cable costs at least $15 instead of $1.50, cause the latter is how much a good knockoff costs.
Seriously. I will not take anyone seriously about how "Apple just cared about a better standard" when they literally don't allow it to be made a standard.
It's just a connector. If you're not letting everyone use it, it's not about it being better... it's about rent-seeking. Which is exactly what the EU legislation seeks to end.
> The expectations of Apple were higher only because of that brand recognition.
I think the expectations were high also because Apple had a really strong marketing push on the concept of "docking" your devices. I remember even cars had dedicated iPhones docks as additional selling points, along with speakers and many other devices. There was a promise that if you bought an iPhone you could dock it everywhere and so there was this big ecosystem of things you could plug it in. Then apple switched to lightning and quietly retired the whole docking thing.
My resentment with the change from the dock connector to lightning was that with lightning, at least initially, they refused to license the tech to anyone for a reasonable fee so it completely eliminated entire classes of products from the market for newer iPhones. I specifically kept my iPhone 4S longer than I would have otherwise to be able to continue using an external DAC and amplifier for driving high impedance headphones for this reason, as an example. I had no problem with the lightning form factor, I had a problem with the unnecessary and punitive DRM they included within it for /no reason/ other than their greed. I believe it's for this same reason they've resisted offering USB-C, which would mean anyone could make an accessory by abiding by industry standards without having to pay for an mFI chip and certification.
I stayed in a hotel recently with one of those clock radios with the 30-pin connector on top. It would have been nice to have it use the larger speakers for background music and the alarm. But with over 200 rooms they probably weren't in a rush to replace all those units with Lightning and now USB-C.
I have yet to find a hotel that has upgraded their lamp-mounted or bedside USB ports. This is super annoying because I typically travel with a MagSafe charger for my MBA and a USB-C to Lightning cable to charge my iPhone. I would plug in my phone next to the bed if I could, but typically end up just leaving it with my computer to charge there.
Has anyone seen a USB-C port in a hotel? I've seen that some car manufacturers are including them (sometimes in lieu of USB-A; sometimes in addition to it).
> "they're always changing their cables". It's obviously not true,
Last year Apple switched from USB-C charging to a new MagSafe charger on M1 Macbooks. USB-C was first introduced in 2018, moving away from the old MagSafe design. These are a very recent changes, so I'd say this still applies.
USB-C was 2016 but yeah. 2006 to 2022, the changes were MagSafe 1 -> MagSafe 2 -> USB-C -> MagSafe 3. That's enough changing that every new laptop you bought probably had a different way of charging, and the MagSafes were hardly different from each other.
But the alternative was you got a Dell/whatever laptop with some one-off charging mechanism.
My MacBooks would like a word. The Magsave cable changes every few years, regardless of outside forces. None of the ‘older’ ones fit my newer MacBooks…
There have been three versions of MagSafe (not "Magsave"). The first one was in use for 6 years, the second for 6 years before it was dropped for USB-C. The third version has been around for two years worth of devices now.
Are you proposing the alternative was that Apple kept supporting 30 pin connectors?
And despite your anecdotes, evidence shows that switching didn’t hurt Apple sales. What were the people who were “burnt” by Apple abandoning 30 pin connectors going to do? Switch to Android and still have to switch cables?
Not at all. It was an old connector that needed to be replaced. What I'm suggesting is that as a brand with that level of public recognition there is No Good Answer. Every option sucks in some way.
And the same is true again now for USB-C, "just switch to USB-C" is not an answer that sounds good for most people, and Apple is still paying for the bad will from customers from the 30-pin connector transition. The USB-C transition is only going to add to that.
Try asking the same enthusiasts who are adamant that switching to USB-C is no big deal and legacy cruft needs to be eliminated what they think about switching to a new PCIe power connector.
Forget the 12VHPWR problems, we had a push for a new connector last gen too and it was universally reviled for some reason. People do not want a new connector, let alone a new voltage rail to help move that power a little more safely, they just wanna keep doing 8-pin forever even when it swells to 4+ connectors and starts dictating PCB layouts etc.
If people want to be evenhanded and honest about seriously looking at legacy standards, it's time to have a chat about ATX and PCIe add-in-card form factorand their relevance in the 21st century. It's time for a new connector and new voltage rails and new form factors for GPUs in general, that standard dates back to the original AT PC (ATX is literally "AT eXtended") and a PC no longer looks anything like it did in 1980.
The "add-in-card" is now pulling more than the actual CPU and the growth of the coolers makes supporting them physically difficult, and the chaos in the market has made solutions impossible because there is no standard for physical dimensions or connector plug-points etc. This is textbook, it's the exact same situation as pre-USB connector standards, everyone is doing their own sizes and layouts and it's chaos. Why should we not have government intervention to impose some common standards and get everybody on the same page so solutions can be engineered and we move forward? Why should a GPU not be a 6x4x12 inch box (or a set of other standard sizes) that slides as a module into the case with high-current connectors in a standardized location? No more GPU sag, no more 4x8pin, just one XT90 jag that contacts as you slide the module into its receptacle on a rail. Sounds like heaven to me.
EU should look at giving a standards body a mandate to move forward past that and we can work towards mandatory adoption of the new standard and outlawing the sale of legacy ATX within 5-10 years. That sounds extreme but it's what we did for USB-C, right? But it's different when it's your sacred cow and you have to pay for new hardware...
> The contrast between "force Apple to stop adhering to legacy standards, USB-C is the future!!!" and "gubmint hands off muh 8-pin aux connectors!!!" is interesting.
Both of these are the same stance to me, "existing industry standards appear to suffice, why foist something different on the market?"
I don't think governments are behind a lot of these changes so that last bit is probably exaggeration but seems misplaced; it's Nvidia, Apple, etc choosing these connectors for their products.
Last year was the first time I've ever had a Mac product and I really liked it. It was also time for me to get a new phone. The only thing that stopped me from getting the iphone was their connector wasn't USBC. Seems trivial, but for someone brand new to the Apple ecosystem, it provided enough friction and cost them a sale. I might give them a shot a few years from now when it's time to replace my phone.
> t's sad that it took legislation to make this happen
Every time this topic comes up i still don’t understand what problem is this legislation supposed to solve. We’re not talking about infrastructure standarization like a gas pump, an electrical outlet or a lightbulb (which has hundreds of standards BTW) but a simple cable. Are we making laws just to accommodate consumer’s convenience now?
> 30-pin compatible speaker docks and other accessories were very widely available, but there are far fewer devices made for Lightning
Apple used Firewire in the original iPod, then used the 30-pin connector for ~10 years, following it with Lightning as the "connector for the next decade." Seems to have been fairly accurate.
If resentment from rendering existing accessories obsolete due to changing connectors is the root cause of the delay, maybe Apple has been secretly waiting for the EU legislation so it can deflect the blame? e.g. "it's EU forcing our hands so we have to change."
I think this is exactly what is going on. The last change saw a few long threads here decrying Apple as the AntiChrist for daring to make the change, and arguing for Micro USB, which was and remains a bad standard.
As someone that deeply detests Apple and would never give them money, I will admit the lightning connector is superior in durability, inspectability, and safety than USB type C in virtually every way.
The real crime here is that Apple insisted on patenting the design and keeping it for only themselves, forcing the rest of the industry to adopt an inferior connector and ultimately force it on them too.
I was thinking the same about both connectors. And then I bought an iPhone. I never broke a USB-C connector nor socket in few years of heavy usage on few devices, but I needed to buy new lightning cable because the pins have worn out after less than a year of just connecting the cable to iphone.
That's extremely unusual -- I've used Lightning cables daily for years without any issue at all.
Whenever I would notice a cable not working (after about a year and a half), the culprit was always dust buildup inside the Lightning port preventing the plug from entering fully. Clean it out with a toothpick for 15 seconds, and then good as new.
If you were using an original Apple cable, that's bizarrely bad luck. I can't even imagine what could physically cause that.
I wore out the USB-C connector on my android phone in about a year and a half of daily charging, so probably lasted less than 500 cycles. I had to resort to wireless charging to keep the phone functioning. This is my first long-lifed usb-c connector and so far it doesn't impress for durability.
My wife has used apple for years, while she does need new cables from time to time the phone side has never had an issue.
I have two broken USB-C cables next to me. They just wore out and broke. They have only been used to charge my phone. To be fair, it's not the metal connector which broke, it's the plastic parts, but still, that's enough to make the connector flimsy.
I also have a phone with a broken USB-C port (data signals don't get through). This phone was effectively bricked when the display stopped working. It still has files on it I'd like to read, but I can't read them because the USB-C data on it isn't working to use remote debugging, and also means the HDMI out feature doesn't work.
I have another phone where the USB-C port works but its charging is intermittent, probably because it isn't making a reliable connection. Probably due to matter accumulated in the port, as the connection does feel slightly less solid than it should be, but it's a pain to clean it out. A toothpick is slightly too large. I've tried various methods of cleaning it out but the problem persists, and I wonder if it's really matter in there, or if something is wrong with the metal parts inside.
These are just my anecdotes, and I don't have anything that uses Lightning to compare with. But I have read claims that USB-C is a very robust, long-life connector, and my experience doesn't give me as much confidence in it as those claims suggest.
I had one of those dreadful MacBook Pros where the keyboard keys would get stuck, and all the USB-C ports on that were almost useless inside a month - they all just got incredibly loose and cables would just fall out.
It seems that the patents aren't the only obstacle to ubiquitous Lightning:
> Yes, it's hard to make floating paddle and sheet metal spring indents more robust than a solid metal puck, but it also comes with extra baggage that Apple is willing to eat and most USB committee companies are not willing to. USB has always made the connectors out of stamped sheet metal for mass production, but it is not possible to make the lightning puck like that. Having potentially live exposed contacts also complicates things.
Lighting can be safer and more durable, but it's still a dumb choice when USB C can deliver a ton more power and serve more purposes (like connecting to a monitor, daisy chaining, and powering laptops).
It's also forever limited to USB2 speeds, state of the art year 2000, and can't do half the things that USB-C does. Of course that's easier to make, but don't worry, the patents notwithstanding, nobody wanted it anyway.
One can lament the inability to adopt and develop a superior connector without disagreeing that USB-C is the future. I think USB-C is better but it's not because the physical connector is good. It's worse in every way. It's also worth noting that there was a usb3 lightning connector in the 2nd generation iPads Pro.
The pins are on the outside making it easy to visually inspect for damage, or obstruction. With USB C a bit of conductive debris can be in the hollow cavity in the connector and cook your hardware. Or bend pins. Watched it happen.
Also if you work in high security environments where badusb attacks are a risk, lightning makes it is even easy to inspect data delivery pins are intentionally missing before you plug in a cable to an airgapped machine.
With USB C you have to custom make complicated usb m-to-f condom devices with transparent enclosures so you can visibly inspect the PCB traces. I have worked in high security environments where these were a must.
Further lightning is simply a solid metal connector and more structurally sound. It is hard to bend pins or cause a short. I have distributed a lot of usb-c devices and watched people hand them back to me with snapped or crushed connectors many times.
I hate that Lightning was made by Apple instead of the USB standards boards.
USB Type C is a terrible connector. I literally use laptops with barrel jack power to avoid it.
I think lightning has a much poorer data throughput, though?
I seem to remember Apple needing to embed clever video comrpession ICs in their cables to get around this, in cases where it couldn't cope with the data needed for a raw signal?
Though the timing is uncanny because when Lightning was announced they said it was going to be around for ten years.
Obviously that didn’t factor into the EU ruling, but 2022 is the tenth year of lightning. So if they switch next year that’s an amazingly accurate prediction.
Apple has been moving their entire lineup to USB-C for a while already (iPad Pro in 2020, iPad Mini in 2021, more devices this year) . Sure, in public they have to oppose tech sector regulation, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were secretly happy as it provides them with an excuse. If some customers who have heavily invested into the Lighting ecosystem complains then can always say "look, it was the EU, blame them".
Absolutely. If Apple would've switched to USB-C without an EU mandate, they would've received mountains of bad press about the unprecedented amount of e-waste and confusion that will result because of this switch. So they pressured the EU to mandate the change to a standard that Apple helped pioneer, so that Apple's environmentally-friendly record would remain unblemished.
When we're constantly adding more data transfer functionality and power capabilities to USB-C, I don't buy the "but muh innovation" argument.
The magic of USB-C isn't in the physical interface, it's in the chips that connect to the interface (both in the device and the cable). And if those chips want to change the pinouts after bootstrapping via the current pinout configuration, they can and will.
You realize that “magic” isn’t being enforced by the as usual short sighted EU?
There is no requirement to ship USB cords that actually transfer data at USB3 speeds or actually any mandate to have cables that support data at all. What do you think the chances are that cheap Android phones will ship with more expensive cables that can transfer at USB 3 speeds?
Not to mention that I doubt that the cheap USB cords will support video over USB C - something that USB C iPads already support.
All I expect out of a USB-C cord shipped by apple with my phone is the ability to charge (which is what I get with an iPad, which uses USB-C). I'd love to expect more, but a Thunderbolt cable is stupidly expensive and not worth including by default.
Standardization around the markings and marketing for USB-C cables would be f'ing awesome. But I'll take this win regardless.
I don't see anybody complaining about the RJ45 format, or NEMA. If you let companies run wild they would probably come up with a way to shove DRM into connectors.
Sadly, that is the state of discourse that's coming from the innovation POV. The entire tone of these arguments boils down to an appeal to "common sense" with nothing backing it.
And, as repeatedly pointed out, it's not like the EU is preemptively stifling all potential replacements. They're explicitly carving room in the laws for those replacements when they're ready.
I can't really bring myself to care about any small differences when my girlfriend can charge her (Android) phone at her desk using her MacBook charger, and I can't do the same with my iPhone
It is. Apple could have licensed it freely to make it the standard before USB-C existed, but chose to keep it proprietary to milk accessory manufacturers instead.
> I must be the only person on HN who thinks the lightening port is better than USB-C.
How do you define "better?"
For charging its fine, as long as you aren't going for high power levels. In terms of data transfer, it simply can't support the data rates that usb-c can. If you want a simple, robust connector for moderate charging loads with moderate data transfer needs it is a great connector.
That's not opinion, just simple physics. Lightning has a lot fewer wires. Apple has managed to get base USB3 rates with a couple of devices, but nowhere close to the thunderbolt rates you can get with USB-C.
Having said that, for the vast majority of use cases, it is a great connector. Simple, idiot proof, and robust.
No, I think those that think otherwise are just extra loud. I use MagSafe these days, so its not really something I deal with, but lightning is a bit easier to plug in and out than USB-C. But both are much better than the pain inducing MicroUSB.
Absolutely. I don't discount that technically lightning is inferior in every way now. But the actual physical connection I think is superior. I would love USB-C with the physical lightening port.
Of the 7 lightening cables I own, two of them have stopped working, and one of them only charges in only one orientation (flip it, and it doesn't work). I'm hoping that usb-c on Apple devices will be more reliable.
You've never had a bad connection with Lightning? Every Lightning cable I've ever had has two pins that have become blackened due to frequent arcing. And the "click" is dependent on the quality of the cable. USB-C cables from Apple click in exactly the same as their Lightning cables, for example.
It's especially ironic that Apple had to be forced to use usb-c since they were the first to adopt Thunderbolt and they use usb-c/thunderbolt in all their laptops and newer iPads. Seems they held on to Lightning connectors simply to sell more cables (or maybe spite).
I don't think it's either of the reasons you stated. I think it's more about how many accessories are out there using Lightning that will be obsoleted by the switch. It's like the Dock to Lightning switch, but on a much larger scale simply because there are far more iPhones with Lightning (and therefore accessories) than there were with the Dock connector.
> Apple’s engineers should be left to come up with a solution
That’s precisely what we’re trying to avoid. Every company coming up with their own version that is definitely totally superior to the other companies’ and thus incompatible
And who says it needs to be compatible? Companies design what they feel are the best/better components for their products. If consumers want to have a "standard" connector that works with multiple devices, they have that with the many Android OEMs that choose to use USB.
But I don't see why the government should be forcing companies to use a standard when it has no clear connection to safety of the product.
I've never really understood why they hadn't done it yet. The iPad has used a USB-C connections for a few iterations now, they got a lot of criticism for switching only to USB-C style connectors on their Mac line years ago, yet they've resisted bringing the iPhone into the same ecosystem. There's a lot of third party peripherals that are reliant on lightning, but that doesn't really seem like something that would hold Apple back.
I feel like a Thunderbolt 3 iPhone has been possible since at least iPhone X. If Apple went all-in on a high-bandwidth connector for all their devices, maybe they could resurrect the dead dream of FireWire.
Me too. One of the stated benefits of the Apple ecosystem is how well they work together. Except when iPads and MacBooks all switch to USBC and iPhones stay on Lightning.
Don't forget Apple's Lightning patents run out soon.
I think rather than ride it alone in the carnage of out-of-spec Lightning kit that would undoubtedly flood the market, getting switched to USB-C (while the customers blame regulators for having to buy new accessories) is probably better for Apple.
You really think Apple applied for a patent for Lightning in 2002? 5 years before the first iPhone and 10 years before the first iPhone that had Lightning?
It would be better if EU regulators asked Apple to open their Lightning cable standard so other phone vendors can use it. I very much like Apple’s implementation of their charging cable because it uses less space on the device.
I'll be happy to carry just one charging cable for everything in my bag in a few years. Hopefully this gives Anker the chance to make One USB-C Cable To Replace Them All with gold connectors and ∞ durability
I actually sprung for a new phone this generation (14) since it was rumored that it would be the last of the Lightning models. Gotta get maximum usage out of all the Lightning stuff laying around the house.
> Joswiak also claimed that the proprietary Lightning cable and the USB-C cable would not exist if Apple had agreed to the EU original demand of using the older Micro USB charging cable which had poor reliability and could easily be damaged.
So... what happens when USB-C no longer makes sense anymore? Will they have to keep using it no matter what? Wait for the law to change?
> So... what happens when USB-C no longer makes sense anymore? Will they have to keep using it no matter what? Wait for the law to change?
According to the amended Directive, the EU Commission should review it every few years and if I remember correctly the law gives the Commission delegated authority to change the annex for the law, where USB-C and USB-PD are specified. Meaning, when the industry want’s to change it, the industry, presumably the USB Implementor’s Forum, needs to go with their proposal for a better alternative to the EU Commission. Which is not unreasonable, I think.
Look at all the defenders of Lightning despite it not being able to handle USB 3, or even HDMI video such that Lightning to HDMI adapters have a processor to decode compressed video to HDMI. Lack of innovation hasn't mattered there. I don't expect many people to care for anymore innovation in a phone port.
Samsung's recently released Galaxy Z Flip4 still has a USB 2 port. Even Apple's new iPad does the same.
USB-C might very well be the last wired connection standard, but I expect a port free iPhone within 10 years that charges via induction and has some way to do some data transfer by that as well.
While I'm against forcing a company to use a specific connector (especially Apple where every millimeter counts), I think this was way overdue because of terribly slow USB 2.0 speeds even on "Pro" models that shoot ProRes and 48MP raws.
Practically, I'd be really really surprised if Apple moved to USB-C but still keep USB 2 speeds.
Moreover, even the cheapest USB-C devices and cables I've seen happily work over USB 3 and I've yet to see anything with USB-C form factor that doesn't support USB 3 even if it's not mandatory.
That number is pulled from deep inside somebody's bowels.
The one spare cable per two devices attach rate seems pretty high to me. One, because people won't necessarily buy apple-branded cables when they can buy cheaper third party ones instead. Two, because a lot of the people who are sufficiently deep into the Apple ecosystem that they would buy original cables probably have a bazillion of them lying about anyway, because you get them with the Apple TV, and the Magic Keyboard/Mouse/Trackpad, and the airpods, and all your old phones, and probably some other devices I'm not thinking of right now. So the actual revenue from cable sales seems awfully inflated.
Then there's the counterfactual: Whatever revenue they do get from cables, they wouldn't lose it all. If you consider the people who buy Apple-branded Lightning cables instead of third party cables, I'd hazard guessing that most of them would still have bought Apple-branded USB-C cables if the devices used those. Apple sells USB-C charge cables (like the ones that come with the iPad) for the same $19 as the Lightning cables.
Put the two factors together, and I can't see the economics of cable sales being the driver for something as fundamental as the ports on their flagship products.
>Apple sold more than 2.2 billion iPhones and more than 360 million iPads before they stopped making numbers public.
>Say for every second iPhone or iPad sold, a user bought just one extra Apple Lightning cable for $19 which probably costs Apple around $1 (if not less) to make.
>That’s give or take $43.5B on Lightning cable sales alone.
I don't follow, `(2.2B + 360M) / 2 * 18` is not 43.5B.
I'm generally not a fan of the EU mandating technical decisions, but for me personally, Lightning connections have always been really low quality. Since my iPhone was about a year old, it often won't recognize a new Lightning cable that's plugged in, I have to unplug and re-plug it several times. Or it will charge for a minute and then suddenly think it's disconnected. Or you will bump it slightly and it thinks it's now disconnected. I have never had such trouble with USB-A, micro-USB, USB-C, or even the old 30-pin connectors.
It's especially annoying when I'm in my car, which unfortunately only supports a wired CarPlay connection. Sometimes I'll go over a bump, it'll disconnect my phone, and I have to mess with it while driving in order to get the directions going again.
I've had iPhones since the original came out with the big ol iPod connector on it. Generally upgrading every two years, except the last one which was an Xs to a 14 Pro.
I have never had this happen. I welcome the USB-C change, but I have never once had what you're describing happen in however many years the Lightning connector has been out.. feels like 8+ years, but without looking I wouldn't know. I've had, I think, one Lightning cable fail to work and that was because my cat chewed on the cord.
Yeah, surveying my friends I found one other person with this problem, but it isn't the majority case.
It doesn't seem to be a problem with the cable, it's really a problem with the connector on the iPhone itself. All my iPads charge fine on Lightning cables. I keep my phone for longer than two years, for one. Or maybe there's something specific to my pocket, where the sort of lint that gets into the iPhone is especially degrading to the connector?
Yeah, I took my last iPhone to an Apple Store when this happened to it, and that's what they advised. Sometimes this helps, but usually it doesn't. Maybe I'll try a Q-tip.
CA emission standards are a waste of money and resources.
WA got rid of emissions testing because almost every single car passes, and it’s actually a net increase in carbon emissions to keep the bureaucracy around. That money could be spent on carbon capture or solar subsidies instead.
I don't really have any opinion about that, since I don't know much about vehicle emissions. I know a lot more about cookie warning banners, enough to say that they are dumb.
This effectively decides that USB-C is the final iteration of phone connectors. Nobody is going to invest in making a new one. Maybe there wasn't much room left for innovation anyway; Apple has been showing for a while that they prefer the lock-in.
It took the industry years to get their act together and leave micro-USB behind, and that was without the replacement being illegal. Maybe Lightning even gave them a reason to look for something better. With other standards, there's at least competition, and adopting a better one can be a selling point.
This right here is the truth. Consumers learn to associate "new cable" with new model aka I'm wealthy enough to grab the latest doodad on launch. Like a monkey wearing a palm leaf, new iPhones or AirPods are a status symbol.
Apple's core market is not San Jose VCs or Mar Vista interior designers. It's Americans living pay-check to pay-check only afloat through credit. Their primary product is the ability to be envied by your neighbours, your classmates, or your colleagues.
This is coming from someone who has completely bought into the Apple ecosystem.
I'm amazed this hasn't happened earlier. They've switched their laptops across ages ago. I have a MacBook, Samsung phone, Sony headphones, Samsung earbuds as well as several other USB-C accessories and I only need the Macbook power cord to charge any of them.
When I travel that's the only power supply I take. When I need to charge my phone, I just unplug the Macbook and plug in the Samsung phone. But if I had an iPhone I couldn't do that!
I switched to the magnetic charger long ago. Just keep it near my bed... plop my phone onto it before bed and wake up in the morning with a charged phone. Easy.
At this point, the only proprietorship Apple holds onto is out of preserving branding by mediocrity.
Not being able to use my friends Android charger is an absolute nuisance. I absolutely could care less about Lightning bolt, Firefly or whatever the fuck it’s called these days…
I have to wonder, when will a company just say, No. Your citizens like our products more than they trust you, we can force their hand by immediately pulling products specifically to spite them while being “compliant”
Reminder, lightning is still usb 2.0 which is a joke with these 4k videos and tons of photos. Apple could still put USB C on there with 2.0 speeds, like Samsung did as recently as the Flip 3...
But this is not a Lightning problem. It is the controller that only supports USB2.
First iPad Pro for instance was Lightning and had USB3 transfer speeds.
I never had a device with lightning. My only Apple device, an Ipad Pro, has USB-C. But I found USB-C very delicate and prone to fail with time. I'm not a fan of this connector type.
case 1: an cable without chip, conforming to the usb3 spec
both devices transfer the highest amount below the cap that is supported
case 2 wirth chip:
the maximum power transfered is now the minimum between charger, phone and cable.
Yea but now people who were using the Lightning cable will have to buy new USB-C devices and replace existing cables.
While the parent was being a bit disingenuous, they are correct that this will create additional e-waste that really probably wasn't necessary to do. I'm happy that Apple is switching to USB-C, for whatever that is worth.
Unlikely. How many people in the EU don't also own USB-C devices already?
I don't really care which port Apple uses, but I'd like them to be consistent across the range. It's annoying carrying Lightning cables (phones) + USB-C cables (iPads and laptops) + USB-micro (camera chargers) when I travel.
Anyone who currently has a lightening cable/phone wont need to change it ;)
And yes, eventually it will lead to e-waste as people replace their Lightening based phones with USB-C, but didn't the same thing take place with the 30 pin dock connector?
I often wonder how much money Apple makes from the fact that lightning cables all seem to die after a few months. I have usb cables that are decades old that still work, but lightning…
I can't remember the last time I had a legit lightning cable break. At least not for any other reason than "kids kept yanking it out by the cord and finally ripped the end off." I still have cables from at least 5 years ago, for sure.
Micro USB cables used to last anywhere from a few days to a few months for me. USB-C is much better, but I still find they fail in less than a year. Not sure exactly why, it looks like it ought to be a sturdy design.
And I guess that means we won't get any more cable interface innovation for a while. Are we really that certain that micro USB -- I mean, USB-C -- is the format to standardize on for the foreseeable future?
And all because Apple refused to play ball and just adopt USB-C like the rest of the industry. They're too used to US regulators that just roll over and don't follow through with their threats.
For over a decade the EU has tried to get the industry to adopt a common standard without mandating it in law (we got microUSB on all phones instead of the previous proprietary ports thanks to the 2009 voluntary EU memorandum of understanding that had no problem with manufacturers upgrading to USB-C when it came out), and only Apple kept on refusing to do it.
> And all because Apple refused to play ball and just adopt USB-C like the rest of the industry.
History lesson: Apple worked with the USB-IF to create USB-C, to make sure it met their needs for both USB and Thunderbolt. They were the first to put USB-C on a laptop, the 12" MacBook in the spring of 2015 — an amazing feat considering that the spec was just finalized in the fall of 2014. They were also the first company to release a laptop with just one USB-C port for power/expansion.
Lightning was pre-USB-C. When it was introduced, Apple committed to support for 10 years.
If you want to invent a conspiracy theory that makes Apple look bad, here it is: If Apple would've switched to USB-C without an EU mandate, they would've received mountains of bad press about the unprecedented amount of e-waste and confusion that will result because of this switch. So they pressured the EU to mandate the change to a standard that Apple helped pioneer so that Apple's environmentally-friendly record would remain unblemished.
USB-C exists because apple didn't "play ball" and use USB-mini or USB-micro like the rest of the industry and developed the lightning port [0] (see comments on this article).
Companies are trying to move to wireless charging anyway, so innovation would have been expected to be in that direction, and that will not be hampered.
Lightning? Certainly at the time it was released it was a far superior connector than the alternatives. USB-C wins out IMO but only because of its now-ubiquity. Lightning is still, I think, a slightly better connector for a handheld.
Couldn't agree more. I don't understand why the HN crowd is so supportive of government telling people what to do, as evidenced by your rapid downvotes. I don't use an iPhone but I'm disappointed Apple caved.
I’m glad the WSJ is covering that but have you checked energy prices in Europe when compared to last year?
Newspapers can say whatever, the reality on the ground is that energy prices have gone up 5-10x in the past year.
Some problems are not even worth mentioning before the big ones are solved. Sometimes you have to hone all your energy to solve the big problems and worry about the small ones later. Priorities and such.
As far as I see the EU govt is more interested in image than actual solutions. Taking on Apple and winning looks sexier than fixing the very unsexy problem of energy or inflation.
The law has been on the books for years and has been enacted for a while already. It's Apple who's making an announcement here -- that they are bravely deciding to follow the law.
And the EU has multiple employees. They can work on different things at the same time.
It's sad that it took legislation to make this happen, but I can see why.
I worked in a pseudo-Apple-store during the height of the 30-pin dock connector and I sold so many cases, speaker docks, charging cables, and all sorts of weird accessories that were built for the 30-pin connector.
Then Apple switched to Lightning. It was better in every. single. way. And yet people got burnt. There was so much hardware that was now incompatible that people understandably didn't recognise the benefits of the Lightning connector.
This mattered far less for other companies because of the lack of brand recognition. If someone switches from one non-Apple device to another non-Apple device, they don't necessarily expect to keep using the same cables, and back in the day every manufacturer had their own. The expectations of Apple were higher only because of that brand recognition.
Sadly, the fact that so many got burnt in the Lightning transition means that there is _still_, a decade later, a resentment among many. I've spoken to so many people who don't like Apple devices, who when asked why say things like "they're always changing their cables". It's obviously not true, but to most people who aren't familiar it might as well be.
I think this even burnt the MFI manufacturers. 30-pin compatible speaker docks and other accessories were very widely available, but there are far fewer devices made for Lightning. There are other factors here like the rise of Bluetooth and Wifi enabled devices, and the demise of the iPod, but I think manufacturers also knew customers didn't want Apple specific connector hardware anymore – I know I didn't.
Ironically, the long-delayed USB-C transition has probably had the opposite effect. In attempting to compensate for the public view of Apple changing connectors, they've become somewhat known as being the company with the wrong connectors. It's sad, given Apple's core role in defining the USB-C spec, but it's understandable.
I look forward to a USB-C iPhone. It's a shame it took legislation to make it happen, but I understand why given how long customers' memories are about the 30-pin connector. As much as we'd like to think USB-C was the "right answer" several years ago, it's a bit more complicated than that.
Two key differences vs last time:
1. As you mentioned, most accessories have moved to wireless. I still (usually) use a physical cable for charging, and I guess I have a 3.5mm dongle, but I think those are the only two things I've plugged into my iPhone in years. Docks with a physical port, in particular, were super popular 10+ years ago and don't really exist anymore. People won't be throwing away speakers.
2. They aren't switching to a new proprietary port, they're switching to a standard port. Which means there's already a thriving ecosystem of accessories that will now be usable with iPhones (some of which people may already have, for use with their other devices!)
I'm more cynical in my interpretation of Apple's motives: I think they just wanted those licensing dollars
> I'm more cynical in my interpretation of Apple's motives: I think they just wanted those licensing dollars
They've switched every other non-iPhone device to USB-C. The more plausible interpretation would be that they don't want to piss off a core constituency of customers who've built up 10 years of Lightning cables. The number of people who care about standardizing on USB-C are definitely less than the vocal folks who will now complain loudly that Apple just forced them to buy a whole bunch of expensive new cables.
At least USB-C is more durable by far than Micro USB was, even if it's not as durable as Lightning. Nothing can fix the stupidity of USB-C cables, though. What a mess.
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I’m more hopeful that they’ll actually include drivers for those devices (probably not). It’d be nice to hook up a screen via hdmi instead of needing an Apple TV. Or plugging in a dock with regular mouse/keyboard attached.
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I already use my laptop charger for giving the phone extra juice when I'm sitting, now my wife will be able to do the same with her iPhone. Same in the car, only one cable.
it's also a blue bubble/green bubble thing. lightning is more exclusive and therefore better
Something I found interesting when discussing this with my wife..
All my friends are tech heads and champing at the bit to have usb-c in their iPhones.
But when she asked me why people were mad about the switch to usb-c it took me by surprise. Then she showed me a lot of online responses from non technical people who see the change of port as annoying and wasteful because now all their stuff won’t work without adapters.
I think it’s really interesting to see the difference in mind sets between different demographics.
But even those non-tech people should have some USB-C cables lying around at this point
Android phones have used USB-C cables for many years. The Nintendo switch and PS5 controllers use USB-C cables. Chromebooks use USB-C cables. The alarm clock I just bought uses a USB-C cable. My keyboard uses a USB-C cable. Every MacBook made in the last five years (and most iPads sold in the last couple years) uses a USB-C cable.
It's very possible, if they're nontechnical, that they already have cables that will work with it and don't even realize it (which to be fair might be its own problem, but it's certainly a smaller problem)
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Absolutely.
USB-C appeals to techies, people with an engineering mindset, because it's an elegant solution. It's one connector, with graceful handling of different use-cases from charging, through peripherals, to high-speed high throughput data transfer.
But practically speaking, I've bought several HDMI adapters, had a hard time choosing a mouse that had USB-C a few years ago, have bought a new charger, lost MagSafe on my laptop. This is how most people view it, and it's hard to convince them otherwise, and rightly so!
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I know many people that mentally only perceive connectors as "the iphone cable" and "the android cable". The "Android cable" could be anything from micro-usb to usb-c to old propietary connectors of old nokia and motorola.
To this people this change effectively removes what's familiar and understood for something unknown, but I think it will still be for the better if eventually they will only perceive it as "the cable" that just works with pretty much anything.
It is not a difference in mind sets.
Those "non technical people" want the same thing that the "tech heads" want: One type of cable that is compatible with all their devices. They just don't necessarily realize that they have already organized their lives in a way that excludes mismatched cables.
I would be just as happy to have everything switch to lightning. I really don't care what it is I just want all my cables to be the same.
One time my mother ordered a power cable for an old coffee maker, I think a Revereware percolator or something similar. I remember she found one specifically for it and waited for it to arrive so she could test this and re-sell it. I took a look and it's just a regular ATX computer power cable (type C13 but I had to look that up), and I was like, I've got a pile of those and could just have given you one.
People just don't realize what are standard cables vs what are bespoke for their application, and this sort of thinking has bitten me personally as well.
I think tech heads are the least practical with tech. It's not necessarily about convenience to them, and they'll tolerate a lot.
As someone in the Apple ecosystem looking out, I disliked that the 30-pin connector replaced FireWire, but understood it was thinner. That connector then stuck around for around 10 years.
Look at nearly every other device manufacturer when the 30-pin connector was being used - Palm, Motorola, Samsung, LG, Sony, etc. all used proprietary connectors that were not only incompatible with each other, but often didn’t work between devices from the same manufacturer. There was no devices to replace (except chargers), because no accessory makers would take the risk of 30 SKUs to support devices that wouldn’t be sold in 6 months and whose bespoke connectors would vanish with the device.
Late in that evolution, device makers decide to standardize on micro-USB, but even that “standard” didn’t last as long as the 30-pin connector.
Lightning was almost universally better (unless you wanted audio and power easily from the same connector), and it also lasted for around 10 years.
USB-C hasn’t even been around as long as lightning, so even though most devices have standardized on it, it has a shorter product life than Lightning has had. Even now, it’s still a mystery to me whether a USB-C adapter and cable will charge my device or fry it.
I’m hopeful that USB-C and whatever charging standard du jour sticks around for a while. The physical connector seems robust enough (though Lightning’s single metal block with no flimsy plastic blade seems pretty optimal), and small enough (again, Lightning).
The idea, however, that Apple is always changing cables when they’ve had two (2!) over two decades is an amazing feat. It’s suboptimal that they were proprietary, but the idea that there is a mountain of e-waste because of them ignores how long they were compatible and the effect of their ubiquity had on accessory makers.
I welcome a new USB-C world, but really think the issues with the 30-pin and Lightning cables ignore everyone else in the industry. I’m also concerned that when USB-D is released, will this legislation prevent device makers from adopting it for stupid legal reasons. This seems specifically like something that should be left to markets.
Is it even possible to fry a device with the wrong USB c? I thought at worse you get longer charging times or slower data
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I suspect that Apple has been in progress of moving things over to USB-C for a while (see the recent Apple TV and iPad changes). They have already moved off of USB-A chargers completely, moving onto USB-C chargers.
My understanding is they are also pushing the upper limits of what lightning charging cables are rated for, my suspicion is that it can't support PPS, so the lightning port is now limiting them both in charging speed/flexibility and in data transfer.
But in some markets (like the US) you have more lightning-charged iPhones than android phones. It is a lot big cost for their customers to bear, throwing away a decade of chargers and cables when Apple is not really going to be able to express it as an improvement to them - for instance, most phone users don't use the data channel at all, getting updates and backing up data with the cloud.
I find it odd people think their reluctance has been to defend profits on some sort of lightning cable ecosystem. Their margin on phones is likely $100+. Their margin on the licensing for a third-party cable is likely below $0.50.
I'd argue this regulation is great for Apple, because it gives them a scapegoat. Apple then claims didn't necessarily _want_ to cost their customers a bunch of money, but the EU mandated it. So Apple is going to go ahead and make the change worldwide.
But hey, look, at the same time we improved phone charging speeds and look how fast we can transfer ProRes media you captured with your phone now to your computer? Feel free to tack those new official charging cables and data transfer cables along with any chargers you need at purchase, if you don't have any already.
> Apple switched to Lightning. It was better in every. single. way.
This is pedantic, but the 30-pin connector did have one minor feature Lightning didn't -- the interface supported a design where it needed to be squeezed to be released, like DisplayPort or RJ45, and a small number of products took advantage of this to build very secure mounts. When switching to Lightning it was no longer possible to build a 3rd-party accessory that had such a secure attachment to the phone.
EDIT: I had remembered this as something Apple's original cables did, where you needed to squeeze them to release, but looking back I think you could just pull them out: https://web.archive.org/web/20071023101738/http://store.appl...
EDIT2: that page has a comment "This cable came with my Ipod Touch and all i have to say is , what an improvement. it was a wonderful idea to do away with those silly squeese tabs. all i have to do is give it a quick yank and its out." so maybe I'm not imagining things?
There were two different models I believe, one that had the squeeze grip and another that didn't require it.
I believe the design was changed because the original squeeze cable had a tendency to cause damage to the iPod/iPhone/iPad when inserted and then yanked/pulled out without squeezing. At least, that's what I remember.
You're not imagining things, the originals did indeed snap in. I can remember how the buttons felt on my grody old charger.
I stayed at a hotel in Italy a few years ago, and the radio alarm next to the bed _still_ had the 30 pin connector. No doubt that there are probably a ton of people still annoyed at Apple.
Yep, Apple probably wanted to switch to USB-C earlier but you can see why they also wouldn't want the backlash. Now, they can switch to USB-C and also blame the regulators when people are mad, so this is kind of win/win for them.
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There are 30-pin to Lightning cables/adapters for connecting to older equipment that otherwise continue to work perfectly.
You're skipping how Apple made Lightning a closed standard and charged big royalties for it. I can reasonably point to that licensing as the reason a legitimate Lightning to USB cable costs at least $15 instead of $1.50, cause the latter is how much a good knockoff costs.
Seriously. I will not take anyone seriously about how "Apple just cared about a better standard" when they literally don't allow it to be made a standard.
It's just a connector. If you're not letting everyone use it, it's not about it being better... it's about rent-seeking. Which is exactly what the EU legislation seeks to end.
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And yet I can find one just as good on Amazon for $5.
No I also don’t worry about buying gold plated HDMI cables.
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> The expectations of Apple were higher only because of that brand recognition.
I think the expectations were high also because Apple had a really strong marketing push on the concept of "docking" your devices. I remember even cars had dedicated iPhones docks as additional selling points, along with speakers and many other devices. There was a promise that if you bought an iPhone you could dock it everywhere and so there was this big ecosystem of things you could plug it in. Then apple switched to lightning and quietly retired the whole docking thing.
My resentment with the change from the dock connector to lightning was that with lightning, at least initially, they refused to license the tech to anyone for a reasonable fee so it completely eliminated entire classes of products from the market for newer iPhones. I specifically kept my iPhone 4S longer than I would have otherwise to be able to continue using an external DAC and amplifier for driving high impedance headphones for this reason, as an example. I had no problem with the lightning form factor, I had a problem with the unnecessary and punitive DRM they included within it for /no reason/ other than their greed. I believe it's for this same reason they've resisted offering USB-C, which would mean anyone could make an accessory by abiding by industry standards without having to pay for an mFI chip and certification.
> There was so much hardware that was now incompatible
Huh? There's a 30-pin-to-lightning dongle that, AFAIK, works for everything. (Or nearly everything?)
I use one still, to connect my ~2010 Zeppelin speaker (30-pin) to an old 2016 iPhone SE (Lightning) I use exclusively for Spotify. Works like a charm.
The idea that the transition to Lightning somehow turned all of this old stuff to junk is silly.
I stayed in a hotel recently with one of those clock radios with the 30-pin connector on top. It would have been nice to have it use the larger speakers for background music and the alarm. But with over 200 rooms they probably weren't in a rush to replace all those units with Lightning and now USB-C.
I have yet to find a hotel that has upgraded their lamp-mounted or bedside USB ports. This is super annoying because I typically travel with a MagSafe charger for my MBA and a USB-C to Lightning cable to charge my iPhone. I would plug in my phone next to the bed if I could, but typically end up just leaving it with my computer to charge there.
Has anyone seen a USB-C port in a hotel? I've seen that some car manufacturers are including them (sometimes in lieu of USB-A; sometimes in addition to it).
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My guess is that they might just leave the room without a clock at some point. I’ve stayed in multiple hotels recently with no clock or in-room phone.
There's A Dongle For That (tm). Not just clock radios, there were audio receivers which used the 30-pin connector.
> "they're always changing their cables". It's obviously not true,
Last year Apple switched from USB-C charging to a new MagSafe charger on M1 Macbooks. USB-C was first introduced in 2018, moving away from the old MagSafe design. These are a very recent changes, so I'd say this still applies.
USB-C was 2016 but yeah. 2006 to 2022, the changes were MagSafe 1 -> MagSafe 2 -> USB-C -> MagSafe 3. That's enough changing that every new laptop you bought probably had a different way of charging, and the MagSafes were hardly different from each other.
But the alternative was you got a Dell/whatever laptop with some one-off charging mechanism.
Thankfully they do still charge on the USB port but yes it does seem odd they didn’t just give customers another usbc port instead.
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You can use either, or both at the same time.
My MacBooks would like a word. The Magsave cable changes every few years, regardless of outside forces. None of the ‘older’ ones fit my newer MacBooks…
"Every few years"
There have been three versions of MagSafe (not "Magsave"). The first one was in use for 6 years, the second for 6 years before it was dropped for USB-C. The third version has been around for two years worth of devices now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagSafe
MagSafe was introduced in 2006 and has had exactly three iterations. “Every few years” is a bit of a stretch.
There’s been three in total and the new one works concurrently with usbc and is an optional, nice, extra.
Are you proposing the alternative was that Apple kept supporting 30 pin connectors?
And despite your anecdotes, evidence shows that switching didn’t hurt Apple sales. What were the people who were “burnt” by Apple abandoning 30 pin connectors going to do? Switch to Android and still have to switch cables?
Not at all. It was an old connector that needed to be replaced. What I'm suggesting is that as a brand with that level of public recognition there is No Good Answer. Every option sucks in some way.
And the same is true again now for USB-C, "just switch to USB-C" is not an answer that sounds good for most people, and Apple is still paying for the bad will from customers from the 30-pin connector transition. The USB-C transition is only going to add to that.
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Yep. And even worse they probably would have had to switch from Micro USB to USB-C again when they upgraded.
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Try asking the same enthusiasts who are adamant that switching to USB-C is no big deal and legacy cruft needs to be eliminated what they think about switching to a new PCIe power connector.
Forget the 12VHPWR problems, we had a push for a new connector last gen too and it was universally reviled for some reason. People do not want a new connector, let alone a new voltage rail to help move that power a little more safely, they just wanna keep doing 8-pin forever even when it swells to 4+ connectors and starts dictating PCB layouts etc.
If people want to be evenhanded and honest about seriously looking at legacy standards, it's time to have a chat about ATX and PCIe add-in-card form factorand their relevance in the 21st century. It's time for a new connector and new voltage rails and new form factors for GPUs in general, that standard dates back to the original AT PC (ATX is literally "AT eXtended") and a PC no longer looks anything like it did in 1980.
The "add-in-card" is now pulling more than the actual CPU and the growth of the coolers makes supporting them physically difficult, and the chaos in the market has made solutions impossible because there is no standard for physical dimensions or connector plug-points etc. This is textbook, it's the exact same situation as pre-USB connector standards, everyone is doing their own sizes and layouts and it's chaos. Why should we not have government intervention to impose some common standards and get everybody on the same page so solutions can be engineered and we move forward? Why should a GPU not be a 6x4x12 inch box (or a set of other standard sizes) that slides as a module into the case with high-current connectors in a standardized location? No more GPU sag, no more 4x8pin, just one XT90 jag that contacts as you slide the module into its receptacle on a rail. Sounds like heaven to me.
EU should look at giving a standards body a mandate to move forward past that and we can work towards mandatory adoption of the new standard and outlawing the sale of legacy ATX within 5-10 years. That sounds extreme but it's what we did for USB-C, right? But it's different when it's your sacred cow and you have to pay for new hardware...
> The contrast between "force Apple to stop adhering to legacy standards, USB-C is the future!!!" and "gubmint hands off muh 8-pin aux connectors!!!" is interesting.
Both of these are the same stance to me, "existing industry standards appear to suffice, why foist something different on the market?"
I don't think governments are behind a lot of these changes so that last bit is probably exaggeration but seems misplaced; it's Nvidia, Apple, etc choosing these connectors for their products.
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Consideration of cost and product volume are big here.
Not nearly so many people are affected by PSU and motherboard specs as they are phone connectors.
> It's sad that it took legislation to make this happen, but I can see why.
Did it? Apple moved their last Lightning product (outside of iPhones & their accessories) earlier this week.
It seemed pretty clear they were going all USB-C, just on their own timeline. It was already widely expected next year.
I bet it would have happened within 2 years if the law wasn’t passed.
If all the iPads, or even most of them, were still Lightning I’d agree. But when even the cheapest model moved, the writing was on the wall.
> Did it? Apple moved their last Lightning product (outside of iPhones & their accessories) earlier this week.
Apple’s Mac peripheral accessories (keyboard, trackpad, mouse) are still all Lightning.
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Last year was the first time I've ever had a Mac product and I really liked it. It was also time for me to get a new phone. The only thing that stopped me from getting the iphone was their connector wasn't USBC. Seems trivial, but for someone brand new to the Apple ecosystem, it provided enough friction and cost them a sale. I might give them a shot a few years from now when it's time to replace my phone.
> t's sad that it took legislation to make this happen
Every time this topic comes up i still don’t understand what problem is this legislation supposed to solve. We’re not talking about infrastructure standarization like a gas pump, an electrical outlet or a lightbulb (which has hundreds of standards BTW) but a simple cable. Are we making laws just to accommodate consumer’s convenience now?
I don't understand the question.
Customer convenience, including interoperability and competition, is the reason those other things are standardized.
> 30-pin compatible speaker docks and other accessories were very widely available, but there are far fewer devices made for Lightning
Apple used Firewire in the original iPod, then used the 30-pin connector for ~10 years, following it with Lightning as the "connector for the next decade." Seems to have been fairly accurate.
If resentment from rendering existing accessories obsolete due to changing connectors is the root cause of the delay, maybe Apple has been secretly waiting for the EU legislation so it can deflect the blame? e.g. "it's EU forcing our hands so we have to change."
I think this is exactly what is going on. The last change saw a few long threads here decrying Apple as the AntiChrist for daring to make the change, and arguing for Micro USB, which was and remains a bad standard.
I would buy this argument if iPads and Macbooks didn't have usb-c charging
>given Apple's core role in defining the USB-C spec
This is another one of John Gruber made up lies that continue to this day.
Basically following in Sony's footsteps.
With the same results.
As someone that deeply detests Apple and would never give them money, I will admit the lightning connector is superior in durability, inspectability, and safety than USB type C in virtually every way.
The real crime here is that Apple insisted on patenting the design and keeping it for only themselves, forcing the rest of the industry to adopt an inferior connector and ultimately force it on them too.
Classic Apple.
I was thinking the same about both connectors. And then I bought an iPhone. I never broke a USB-C connector nor socket in few years of heavy usage on few devices, but I needed to buy new lightning cable because the pins have worn out after less than a year of just connecting the cable to iphone.
That's extremely unusual -- I've used Lightning cables daily for years without any issue at all.
Whenever I would notice a cable not working (after about a year and a half), the culprit was always dust buildup inside the Lightning port preventing the plug from entering fully. Clean it out with a toothpick for 15 seconds, and then good as new.
If you were using an original Apple cable, that's bizarrely bad luck. I can't even imagine what could physically cause that.
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I wore out the USB-C connector on my android phone in about a year and a half of daily charging, so probably lasted less than 500 cycles. I had to resort to wireless charging to keep the phone functioning. This is my first long-lifed usb-c connector and so far it doesn't impress for durability.
My wife has used apple for years, while she does need new cables from time to time the phone side has never had an issue.
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I have two broken USB-C cables next to me. They just wore out and broke. They have only been used to charge my phone. To be fair, it's not the metal connector which broke, it's the plastic parts, but still, that's enough to make the connector flimsy.
I also have a phone with a broken USB-C port (data signals don't get through). This phone was effectively bricked when the display stopped working. It still has files on it I'd like to read, but I can't read them because the USB-C data on it isn't working to use remote debugging, and also means the HDMI out feature doesn't work.
I have another phone where the USB-C port works but its charging is intermittent, probably because it isn't making a reliable connection. Probably due to matter accumulated in the port, as the connection does feel slightly less solid than it should be, but it's a pain to clean it out. A toothpick is slightly too large. I've tried various methods of cleaning it out but the problem persists, and I wonder if it's really matter in there, or if something is wrong with the metal parts inside.
These are just my anecdotes, and I don't have anything that uses Lightning to compare with. But I have read claims that USB-C is a very robust, long-life connector, and my experience doesn't give me as much confidence in it as those claims suggest.
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I have a family member with a similar iPhone charging issue.
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I had one of those dreadful MacBook Pros where the keyboard keys would get stuck, and all the USB-C ports on that were almost useless inside a month - they all just got incredibly loose and cables would just fall out.
It seems that the patents aren't the only obstacle to ubiquitous Lightning:
> Yes, it's hard to make floating paddle and sheet metal spring indents more robust than a solid metal puck, but it also comes with extra baggage that Apple is willing to eat and most USB committee companies are not willing to. USB has always made the connectors out of stamped sheet metal for mass production, but it is not possible to make the lightning puck like that. Having potentially live exposed contacts also complicates things.
(https://reddit.com/comments/6xfo53/comment/dmfqbnc)
Lighting can be safer and more durable, but it's still a dumb choice when USB C can deliver a ton more power and serve more purposes (like connecting to a monitor, daisy chaining, and powering laptops).
Lightning could actually been the physical connector for all the usual USB type C power delivery framework features. If Apple did not patent it.
Now it is left behind in features and adoption. Lightning is doomed to history along with other good patented ideas like MiniDisks and Magsafe.
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It's also forever limited to USB2 speeds, state of the art year 2000, and can't do half the things that USB-C does. Of course that's easier to make, but don't worry, the patents notwithstanding, nobody wanted it anyway.
One can lament the inability to adopt and develop a superior connector without disagreeing that USB-C is the future. I think USB-C is better but it's not because the physical connector is good. It's worse in every way. It's also worth noting that there was a usb3 lightning connector in the 2nd generation iPads Pro.
> I will admit the lightning connector is superior in durability, inspectability, and safety than USB type C in virtually every way
Any links to back that claim?
The pins are on the outside making it easy to visually inspect for damage, or obstruction. With USB C a bit of conductive debris can be in the hollow cavity in the connector and cook your hardware. Or bend pins. Watched it happen.
Also if you work in high security environments where badusb attacks are a risk, lightning makes it is even easy to inspect data delivery pins are intentionally missing before you plug in a cable to an airgapped machine.
With USB C you have to custom make complicated usb m-to-f condom devices with transparent enclosures so you can visibly inspect the PCB traces. I have worked in high security environments where these were a must.
Further lightning is simply a solid metal connector and more structurally sound. It is hard to bend pins or cause a short. I have distributed a lot of usb-c devices and watched people hand them back to me with snapped or crushed connectors many times.
I hate that Lightning was made by Apple instead of the USB standards boards.
USB Type C is a terrible connector. I literally use laptops with barrel jack power to avoid it.
Do you have a source for the question you are asking?
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I think lightning has a much poorer data throughput, though?
I seem to remember Apple needing to embed clever video comrpession ICs in their cables to get around this, in cases where it couldn't cope with the data needed for a raw signal?
The first generation iPad Pro with Lightning could transfer over “USB3” speeds.
But most of the cheaper USB C cables only transfer at USB2 speeds.
It’ll be nice to see USB-C across the range.
Though the timing is uncanny because when Lightning was announced they said it was going to be around for ten years.
Obviously that didn’t factor into the EU ruling, but 2022 is the tenth year of lightning. So if they switch next year that’s an amazingly accurate prediction.
Apple has been moving their entire lineup to USB-C for a while already (iPad Pro in 2020, iPad Mini in 2021, more devices this year) . Sure, in public they have to oppose tech sector regulation, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were secretly happy as it provides them with an excuse. If some customers who have heavily invested into the Lighting ecosystem complains then can always say "look, it was the EU, blame them".
Absolutely. If Apple would've switched to USB-C without an EU mandate, they would've received mountains of bad press about the unprecedented amount of e-waste and confusion that will result because of this switch. So they pressured the EU to mandate the change to a standard that Apple helped pioneer, so that Apple's environmentally-friendly record would remain unblemished.
The mountains of e-waste created by keeping around a zombie protocol far exceeds a transition to a widely used and accepted standard.
The majority of people with iPhone likely already have USB-C cables anyway, so requires no net new purchase
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Correction, my iPad Pro from 2018 also has USB-C
Good.
When we're constantly adding more data transfer functionality and power capabilities to USB-C, I don't buy the "but muh innovation" argument.
The magic of USB-C isn't in the physical interface, it's in the chips that connect to the interface (both in the device and the cable). And if those chips want to change the pinouts after bootstrapping via the current pinout configuration, they can and will.
You realize that “magic” isn’t being enforced by the as usual short sighted EU?
There is no requirement to ship USB cords that actually transfer data at USB3 speeds or actually any mandate to have cables that support data at all. What do you think the chances are that cheap Android phones will ship with more expensive cables that can transfer at USB 3 speeds?
Not to mention that I doubt that the cheap USB cords will support video over USB C - something that USB C iPads already support.
All I expect out of a USB-C cord shipped by apple with my phone is the ability to charge (which is what I get with an iPad, which uses USB-C). I'd love to expect more, but a Thunderbolt cable is stupidly expensive and not worth including by default.
Standardization around the markings and marketing for USB-C cables would be f'ing awesome. But I'll take this win regardless.
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you may not buy the "but muh innovation" - its also sad that that passes for discourse for you - but it is economic fact.
whats your opinion on "muh regulatory capture"? what about lightning vs microusb?
I don't see anybody complaining about the RJ45 format, or NEMA. If you let companies run wild they would probably come up with a way to shove DRM into connectors.
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Sadly, that is the state of discourse that's coming from the innovation POV. The entire tone of these arguments boils down to an appeal to "common sense" with nothing backing it.
And, as repeatedly pointed out, it's not like the EU is preemptively stifling all potential replacements. They're explicitly carving room in the laws for those replacements when they're ready.
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I must be the only person on HN who thinks the lightening port is better than USB-C.
I can't really bring myself to care about any small differences when my girlfriend can charge her (Android) phone at her desk using her MacBook charger, and I can't do the same with my iPhone
It is. Apple could have licensed it freely to make it the standard before USB-C existed, but chose to keep it proprietary to milk accessory manufacturers instead.
> I must be the only person on HN who thinks the lightening port is better than USB-C.
How do you define "better?"
For charging its fine, as long as you aren't going for high power levels. In terms of data transfer, it simply can't support the data rates that usb-c can. If you want a simple, robust connector for moderate charging loads with moderate data transfer needs it is a great connector.
That's not opinion, just simple physics. Lightning has a lot fewer wires. Apple has managed to get base USB3 rates with a couple of devices, but nowhere close to the thunderbolt rates you can get with USB-C.
Having said that, for the vast majority of use cases, it is a great connector. Simple, idiot proof, and robust.
No, I think those that think otherwise are just extra loud. I use MagSafe these days, so its not really something I deal with, but lightning is a bit easier to plug in and out than USB-C. But both are much better than the pain inducing MicroUSB.
Maybe a better UX for you but definitely not better performance
Absolutely. I don't discount that technically lightning is inferior in every way now. But the actual physical connection I think is superior. I would love USB-C with the physical lightening port.
Nope, I agree. USB-C seems fragile as hell.
Of the 7 lightening cables I own, two of them have stopped working, and one of them only charges in only one orientation (flip it, and it doesn't work). I'm hoping that usb-c on Apple devices will be more reliable.
Ergonomically, Lightning is clearly superior.
USB-C can do more things, though.
no you're not. sturdier, clicks in better and doesn't wear down the same way. and im not even a apple fan/user.
You've never had a bad connection with Lightning? Every Lightning cable I've ever had has two pins that have become blackened due to frequent arcing. And the "click" is dependent on the quality of the cable. USB-C cables from Apple click in exactly the same as their Lightning cables, for example.
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It's a better port maybe, but the licensing strangles it.
It's especially ironic that Apple had to be forced to use usb-c since they were the first to adopt Thunderbolt and they use usb-c/thunderbolt in all their laptops and newer iPads. Seems they held on to Lightning connectors simply to sell more cables (or maybe spite).
I don't think it's either of the reasons you stated. I think it's more about how many accessories are out there using Lightning that will be obsoleted by the switch. It's like the Dock to Lightning switch, but on a much larger scale simply because there are far more iPhones with Lightning (and therefore accessories) than there were with the Dock connector.
Create the disease so you can profit from the medicine
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Nice. Hope that one day they will come after power tool batteries too.
They should start with the batteries first :D Every device in that smart home innovation comes with some battery that I have never seen before.
Power tools already have a standard, smart home is a totally different beast though, and AFAIK most items should use USB-C?
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> Apple’s engineers should be left to come up with a solution
That’s precisely what we’re trying to avoid. Every company coming up with their own version that is definitely totally superior to the other companies’ and thus incompatible
And who says it needs to be compatible? Companies design what they feel are the best/better components for their products. If consumers want to have a "standard" connector that works with multiple devices, they have that with the many Android OEMs that choose to use USB.
But I don't see why the government should be forcing companies to use a standard when it has no clear connection to safety of the product.
I've never really understood why they hadn't done it yet. The iPad has used a USB-C connections for a few iterations now, they got a lot of criticism for switching only to USB-C style connectors on their Mac line years ago, yet they've resisted bringing the iPhone into the same ecosystem. There's a lot of third party peripherals that are reliant on lightning, but that doesn't really seem like something that would hold Apple back.
I feel like a Thunderbolt 3 iPhone has been possible since at least iPhone X. If Apple went all-in on a high-bandwidth connector for all their devices, maybe they could resurrect the dead dream of FireWire.
Me too. One of the stated benefits of the Apple ecosystem is how well they work together. Except when iPads and MacBooks all switch to USBC and iPhones stay on Lightning.
Honestly, I'm kinda surprised Apple isn't switching to USB Type-C... but only in the EU.
That would double the amount of iPhone models they need to manufacture and sell. It might happen, but Apple likes thin product lines.
> That would double the amount of iPhone models they need to manufacture and sell.
Aren't they already doing that with the US iPhone 14 models now having no SIM tray vs the rest of the world with SIM trays?
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Don't forget Apple's Lightning patents run out soon.
I think rather than ride it alone in the carnage of out-of-spec Lightning kit that would undoubtedly flood the market, getting switched to USB-C (while the customers blame regulators for having to buy new accessories) is probably better for Apple.
You really think Apple applied for a patent for Lightning in 2002? 5 years before the first iPhone and 10 years before the first iPhone that had Lightning?
It would be better if EU regulators asked Apple to open their Lightning cable standard so other phone vendors can use it. I very much like Apple’s implementation of their charging cable because it uses less space on the device.
Why would the other phone vendors switch to a different connector though?
Cause the EU forces them to, lol. Yeah it ain't happening.
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It's USB 2 in different plastic mold. Awesome indeed.
I'll be happy to carry just one charging cable for everything in my bag in a few years. Hopefully this gives Anker the chance to make One USB-C Cable To Replace Them All with gold connectors and ∞ durability
I'm so excited for this. I was about to buy a new iPhone, but with this news I'm going to wait another year just so I can get USB-C
I actually sprung for a new phone this generation (14) since it was rumored that it would be the last of the Lightning models. Gotta get maximum usage out of all the Lightning stuff laying around the house.
Sunk cost fallacy much?
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> Joswiak also claimed that the proprietary Lightning cable and the USB-C cable would not exist if Apple had agreed to the EU original demand of using the older Micro USB charging cable which had poor reliability and could easily be damaged.
So... what happens when USB-C no longer makes sense anymore? Will they have to keep using it no matter what? Wait for the law to change?
> So... what happens when USB-C no longer makes sense anymore? Will they have to keep using it no matter what? Wait for the law to change?
According to the amended Directive, the EU Commission should review it every few years and if I remember correctly the law gives the Commission delegated authority to change the annex for the law, where USB-C and USB-PD are specified. Meaning, when the industry want’s to change it, the industry, presumably the USB Implementor’s Forum, needs to go with their proposal for a better alternative to the EU Commission. Which is not unreasonable, I think.
Look at all the defenders of Lightning despite it not being able to handle USB 3, or even HDMI video such that Lightning to HDMI adapters have a processor to decode compressed video to HDMI. Lack of innovation hasn't mattered there. I don't expect many people to care for anymore innovation in a phone port.
Samsung's recently released Galaxy Z Flip4 still has a USB 2 port. Even Apple's new iPad does the same.
USB-C will make sense forever now. Nobody will develop something else. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it is what it is.
USB-C might very well be the last wired connection standard, but I expect a port free iPhone within 10 years that charges via induction and has some way to do some data transfer by that as well.
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Eh, that's the wrong take about the guys statement.
The actual take should've been [Citation Needed].
Reserve some celebration until we’ve seen the implementation. It’s not beyond Apple to manufacture an EU-specific SKU and charge €100 more for it.
While I'm against forcing a company to use a specific connector (especially Apple where every millimeter counts), I think this was way overdue because of terribly slow USB 2.0 speeds even on "Pro" models that shoot ProRes and 48MP raws.
You realize that nowhere in the “mandate” are any speed requirements and most cheap USB C cords only support USB2 speeds?
Practically, I'd be really really surprised if Apple moved to USB-C but still keep USB 2 speeds.
Moreover, even the cheapest USB-C devices and cables I've seen happily work over USB 3 and I've yet to see anything with USB-C form factor that doesn't support USB 3 even if it's not mandatory.
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I, surprised they hadn’t changed over yet, only major manufacturer not to yet, and they went all in on USB-C on iPads and MacBooks.
"$43.5B on Lightning cable sales alone" ~ https://medium.com/swlh/the-real-reason-apple-doesnt-want-to...
That number is pulled from deep inside somebody's bowels.
The one spare cable per two devices attach rate seems pretty high to me. One, because people won't necessarily buy apple-branded cables when they can buy cheaper third party ones instead. Two, because a lot of the people who are sufficiently deep into the Apple ecosystem that they would buy original cables probably have a bazillion of them lying about anyway, because you get them with the Apple TV, and the Magic Keyboard/Mouse/Trackpad, and the airpods, and all your old phones, and probably some other devices I'm not thinking of right now. So the actual revenue from cable sales seems awfully inflated.
Then there's the counterfactual: Whatever revenue they do get from cables, they wouldn't lose it all. If you consider the people who buy Apple-branded Lightning cables instead of third party cables, I'd hazard guessing that most of them would still have bought Apple-branded USB-C cables if the devices used those. Apple sells USB-C charge cables (like the ones that come with the iPad) for the same $19 as the Lightning cables.
Put the two factors together, and I can't see the economics of cable sales being the driver for something as fundamental as the ports on their flagship products.
This is an incredibly naive estimate, and the author couldn't even get the simple math right. (22 billion + 330 million) * $18 = $45.5B.
Most Lightning cables are sold by 3rd parties, Lightning didn't even appear on iPhones/iPads until the iPhone 5 and 4th-gen iPad, etc.
>Apple sold more than 2.2 billion iPhones and more than 360 million iPads before they stopped making numbers public.
>Say for every second iPhone or iPad sold, a user bought just one extra Apple Lightning cable for $19 which probably costs Apple around $1 (if not less) to make.
>That’s give or take $43.5B on Lightning cable sales alone.
I don't follow, `(2.2B + 360M) / 2 * 18` is not 43.5B.
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You really think Apple sells $43B worth of Lightning cables?
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It only took them 8 years to adopt a standard every other phone company already did. Another 8 years for jack 3.5mm on iPhones?
I’m somewhat surprised Apple is doing this. I 100% thought they would abandon any sort of connector and go completely wireless.
Oh my god, please please please this in the US this is an instant buy for me. Can they switch over everything? Airpods too?
Apple's Beats earbuds case is already USB-C so I imagine it's coming for Airpods.
according to EU Law it is mandatory for all these kinds of devices.
Yeah but I am hoping they do this for all iPhones and not just EU ones.
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I'm generally not a fan of the EU mandating technical decisions, but for me personally, Lightning connections have always been really low quality. Since my iPhone was about a year old, it often won't recognize a new Lightning cable that's plugged in, I have to unplug and re-plug it several times. Or it will charge for a minute and then suddenly think it's disconnected. Or you will bump it slightly and it thinks it's now disconnected. I have never had such trouble with USB-A, micro-USB, USB-C, or even the old 30-pin connectors.
It's especially annoying when I'm in my car, which unfortunately only supports a wired CarPlay connection. Sometimes I'll go over a bump, it'll disconnect my phone, and I have to mess with it while driving in order to get the directions going again.
I've had iPhones since the original came out with the big ol iPod connector on it. Generally upgrading every two years, except the last one which was an Xs to a 14 Pro.
I have never had this happen. I welcome the USB-C change, but I have never once had what you're describing happen in however many years the Lightning connector has been out.. feels like 8+ years, but without looking I wouldn't know. I've had, I think, one Lightning cable fail to work and that was because my cat chewed on the cord.
Yeah, surveying my friends I found one other person with this problem, but it isn't the majority case.
It doesn't seem to be a problem with the cable, it's really a problem with the connector on the iPhone itself. All my iPads charge fine on Lightning cables. I keep my phone for longer than two years, for one. Or maybe there's something specific to my pocket, where the sort of lint that gets into the iPhone is especially degrading to the connector?
> I have to unplug and re-plug it several times. Or it will charge for a minute and then suddenly think it's disconnected.
Take a toothpick, and scrub inside the connector on the Phone side. Most likely there's some dust/lint stuck in there.
Yeah, I took my last iPhone to an Apple Store when this happened to it, and that's what they advised. Sometimes this helps, but usually it doesn't. Maybe I'll try a Q-tip.
> I'm generally not a fan of the EU mandating technical decisions
How do you feel about California mandating emissions standards for vehicles?
CA emission standards are a waste of money and resources.
WA got rid of emissions testing because almost every single car passes, and it’s actually a net increase in carbon emissions to keep the bureaucracy around. That money could be spent on carbon capture or solar subsidies instead.
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This is like mandating all cars be hydrogen fuel cell as a way to reduce emissions.
I don't really have any opinion about that, since I don't know much about vehicle emissions. I know a lot more about cookie warning banners, enough to say that they are dumb.
I feel good about that, but it's not the same thing.
This effectively decides that USB-C is the final iteration of phone connectors. Nobody is going to invest in making a new one. Maybe there wasn't much room left for innovation anyway; Apple has been showing for a while that they prefer the lock-in.
Not true at all.
If USB-C hits hard limitations, vendors will come together to create a new spec. The EU law has provisions to reassess the standard every few years.
There are already many specs such as web standards that are critical to society and collaborated on by many vendors.
It took the industry years to get their act together and leave micro-USB behind, and that was without the replacement being illegal. Maybe Lightning even gave them a reason to look for something better. With other standards, there's at least competition, and adopting a better one can be a selling point.
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Good. I was thinking about buying iphone, but this was the ultimate thing that made me not buy it.
I just hope Apple doesn't decide to screw it up somehow. Like making sure only pricey apple chargers works. Then it wouldn't matter at all.
BS, they love it. Users will just HAVE to buy iphone 15, because it has the noticeable usb hole to differentiate them.
Lighting cables are the new green bubbles. Using one means you re poor or hate the environment or both
This right here is the truth. Consumers learn to associate "new cable" with new model aka I'm wealthy enough to grab the latest doodad on launch. Like a monkey wearing a palm leaf, new iPhones or AirPods are a status symbol.
Apple's core market is not San Jose VCs or Mar Vista interior designers. It's Americans living pay-check to pay-check only afloat through credit. Their primary product is the ability to be envied by your neighbours, your classmates, or your colleagues.
This is coming from someone who has completely bought into the Apple ecosystem.
I'm amazed this hasn't happened earlier. They've switched their laptops across ages ago. I have a MacBook, Samsung phone, Sony headphones, Samsung earbuds as well as several other USB-C accessories and I only need the Macbook power cord to charge any of them.
When I travel that's the only power supply I take. When I need to charge my phone, I just unplug the Macbook and plug in the Samsung phone. But if I had an iPhone I couldn't do that!
I switched to the magnetic charger long ago. Just keep it near my bed... plop my phone onto it before bed and wake up in the morning with a charged phone. Easy.
At this point, the only proprietorship Apple holds onto is out of preserving branding by mediocrity.
Not being able to use my friends Android charger is an absolute nuisance. I absolutely could care less about Lightning bolt, Firefly or whatever the fuck it’s called these days…
I have to wonder, when will a company just say, No. Your citizens like our products more than they trust you, we can force their hand by immediately pulling products specifically to spite them while being “compliant”
Never? EU market is too big for Apple to lose it because of some connector. It's second biggest market for Apple in the world after Americas [1]
1. https://businessquant.com/apple-revenue-by-region
Reminder, lightning is still usb 2.0 which is a joke with these 4k videos and tons of photos. Apple could still put USB C on there with 2.0 speeds, like Samsung did as recently as the Flip 3...
But this is not a Lightning problem. It is the controller that only supports USB2. First iPad Pro for instance was Lightning and had USB3 transfer speeds.
A single camera adapter had USB3, everything else on that device is USB 2.0.
I never had a device with lightning. My only Apple device, an Ipad Pro, has USB-C. But I found USB-C very delicate and prone to fail with time. I'm not a fan of this connector type.
I only had cables that failed and cheap usb powerbanks that had bad ports but usb-c ports are the most robust i have seen.
What happens if I plug my USB-C iPhone into my 100W USB-C charging cord for my laptop?
Does the phone charge? Does it get hot? Does the brick get hot?
case 1: an cable without chip, conforming to the usb3 spec both devices transfer the highest amount below the cap that is supported case 2 wirth chip: the maximum power transfered is now the minimum between charger, phone and cable.
I already plug my iphone lightning cable to 100W USB-C charging block for my laptop. USB-C doesn't send full power unless the device wants it.
Is it bad that I assume they'll have logic in the phone that says only fast charge or whatever with Apple chargers?
Apple should provide free eWaste recycling for lighting cables, with some assurance that the will actually be recycled.
Does this mean Apple will add USB-C functionality beyond just charging? For example, connecting to hard drives.
No, that'll be up to Apple to implement if they choose to. The only EU requirements are USB-C for charging, and USB-PD for charging protocol.
They could remove all USB data functionality completely if they wanted to, the EU law is only about device charging.
It takes courage to follow the law
I suspect it is harder to waterproof a usb-c jack.
Why come here to spread FUD?
Thankfully NO USB-C phones are waterproof?
Oh wait, many are?
https://support.google.com/pixelphone/answer/7533279?hl=en
Pixel 7 Pro, 7, 6a, 6 Pro, 6, 5a (5G), 5, 4, 3, and 2 phones are designed to be water-resistant.
Why would a USB-C jack be any more difficult vs lightening?
should be easier or around the same.
It invisible hand of the Government :-)
What a pain, forcing everyone to buy new cables.
Indeed. To resolve that issue, the EU came up with this legislation.
Yea but now people who were using the Lightning cable will have to buy new USB-C devices and replace existing cables.
While the parent was being a bit disingenuous, they are correct that this will create additional e-waste that really probably wasn't necessary to do. I'm happy that Apple is switching to USB-C, for whatever that is worth.
What? This legislation is what’s forcing everyone to buy new cables and throw out their old ones.
Unlikely. How many people in the EU don't also own USB-C devices already?
I don't really care which port Apple uses, but I'd like them to be consistent across the range. It's annoying carrying Lightning cables (phones) + USB-C cables (iPads and laptops) + USB-micro (camera chargers) when I travel.
> It's annoying carrying Lightning cables (phones) + USB-C cables (iPads and laptops) + USB-micro (camera chargers) when I travel.
This might help: Anker Powerline II 3-in-1 Cable, Lightning/Type C/Micro USB Cable
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071WNQYV6
I suspect you misread the legislation.
Anyone who currently has a lightening cable/phone wont need to change it ;)
And yes, eventually it will lead to e-waste as people replace their Lightening based phones with USB-C, but didn't the same thing take place with the 30 pin dock connector?
At least after this apple wont need dongles like this beauty : https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/product/MQLU3AM/A/usb-c-to-app...
I often wonder how much money Apple makes from the fact that lightning cables all seem to die after a few months. I have usb cables that are decades old that still work, but lightning…
I can't remember the last time I had a legit lightning cable break. At least not for any other reason than "kids kept yanking it out by the cord and finally ripped the end off." I still have cables from at least 5 years ago, for sure.
Micro USB cables used to last anywhere from a few days to a few months for me. USB-C is much better, but I still find they fail in less than a year. Not sure exactly why, it looks like it ought to be a sturdy design.
And I just threw two Anker USB-C charging cables away in the last four weeks as both broke internally.
Anker has been great about replacing in my experience.
I've only had 1 lightning cable die on me in over 10 years of owning iPhones, and it was a heavily abused cable.
Yes because it’s impossible to buy third party Lightning cables…
Apple takes a cut from every licensed Lightning cable sold.
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And I guess that means we won't get any more cable interface innovation for a while. Are we really that certain that micro USB -- I mean, USB-C -- is the format to standardize on for the foreseeable future?
And all because Apple refused to play ball and just adopt USB-C like the rest of the industry. They're too used to US regulators that just roll over and don't follow through with their threats.
For over a decade the EU has tried to get the industry to adopt a common standard without mandating it in law (we got microUSB on all phones instead of the previous proprietary ports thanks to the 2009 voluntary EU memorandum of understanding that had no problem with manufacturers upgrading to USB-C when it came out), and only Apple kept on refusing to do it.
> And all because Apple refused to play ball and just adopt USB-C like the rest of the industry.
History lesson: Apple worked with the USB-IF to create USB-C, to make sure it met their needs for both USB and Thunderbolt. They were the first to put USB-C on a laptop, the 12" MacBook in the spring of 2015 — an amazing feat considering that the spec was just finalized in the fall of 2014. They were also the first company to release a laptop with just one USB-C port for power/expansion.
Lightning was pre-USB-C. When it was introduced, Apple committed to support for 10 years.
If you want to invent a conspiracy theory that makes Apple look bad, here it is: If Apple would've switched to USB-C without an EU mandate, they would've received mountains of bad press about the unprecedented amount of e-waste and confusion that will result because of this switch. So they pressured the EU to mandate the change to a standard that Apple helped pioneer so that Apple's environmentally-friendly record would remain unblemished.
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USB-C exists because apple didn't "play ball" and use USB-mini or USB-micro like the rest of the industry and developed the lightning port [0] (see comments on this article).
0 - https://9to5mac.com/2015/03/14/apple-invent-usb-type-c/
Thank fuck they didn't because otherwise we would have ended up with the shitty mini USB crap.
Apple has been the one company making progress on stuff:
- no floppy
- no optical
- no shitty as mini or micro USB
- no Flash
Each time people whined about the fact that they "didn't use what everyone else does" and each time they were right.
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The EU regulations have regular reevaluations of the format built in.
So if something better comes along, it can replace USB-C at that point.
whos going to invest knowing their investment could be completely wasted on the whims of beaurocrats and on their schedule?
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If you think this won’t slow innovation in the connector space you’ve lost your mind.
It might be worth the lost innovation, but to pretend that this won’t impact new development is just fantasyland.
Wow, you can’t imagine how excited I am that EU regulators get to decide the direction of technology.
The standard complaint against USB is that it is innovating so quickly that the names are confusing, not that it isn't innovating.
Companies are trying to move to wireless charging anyway, so innovation would have been expected to be in that direction, and that will not be hampered.
Literally who uses wireless charging
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Sadly, the first time this was considered by the EU was when all the phones were using Mini USB connectors. The same arguments back then.
Of course, Mini USB is largely deprecated and not used these days.
If they had forced Apple into Mini USB, would we have gotten adoption of Micro USB, and eventually Type-C connectors?
>And I guess that means we won't get any more cable interface innovation for a while.
What cable innovations has the iPhone had thus far?
Lightning? Certainly at the time it was released it was a far superior connector than the alternatives. USB-C wins out IMO but only because of its now-ubiquity. Lightning is still, I think, a slightly better connector for a handheld.
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The lightning connector while everybody else was stuck with miniusb and microusb?
Yes
It doesn't matter what you think, the busybodies have made their choice so you can't make yours.
Couldn't agree more. I don't understand why the HN crowd is so supportive of government telling people what to do, as evidenced by your rapid downvotes. I don't use an iPhone but I'm disappointed Apple caved.
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Well I'm glad the EU decided to tackle important subjects. Not like they have a monetary and energy crisis going on at the moment.
You can work on multiple problems at once.
For instance, since you brought up energy, even recently it was feared that Europe will have trouble this winter but now they have a glut: https://www.wsj.com/articles/europe-once-fearing-gas-rationi...
There are also long term and short term problems that warrant different strategies.
Some problems are important to solve but not urgent, while others are both.
I’m glad the WSJ is covering that but have you checked energy prices in Europe when compared to last year?
Newspapers can say whatever, the reality on the ground is that energy prices have gone up 5-10x in the past year.
Some problems are not even worth mentioning before the big ones are solved. Sometimes you have to hone all your energy to solve the big problems and worry about the small ones later. Priorities and such.
As far as I see the EU govt is more interested in image than actual solutions. Taking on Apple and winning looks sexier than fixing the very unsexy problem of energy or inflation.
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The law has been on the books for years and has been enacted for a while already. It's Apple who's making an announcement here -- that they are bravely deciding to follow the law.
And the EU has multiple employees. They can work on different things at the same time.