Comment by urthor
3 years ago
Exactly right.
We're complaining about a problem that was no different in the heyday of IRC.
Ultimately, publicly searchable information is a voluntary act.
3 years ago
Exactly right.
We're complaining about a problem that was no different in the heyday of IRC.
Ultimately, publicly searchable information is a voluntary act.
> We're complaining about a problem that was no different in the heyday of IRC.
IRC didn't pretend that you had information stored there, though...
Discord hides this fact better by offering semi-permanence and a "search" feature, so it seems like its a real-time forum, when in fact its just slack with better video features...
Its very different. The IRC of the yester-yore was filled with people sharing links to more-permanent docs, mailing lists. Discord is filled with people under the mistaken impression they have documented anything by having a chat with a search feature, (and this is has happened to me) claiming that the "rules" are documented somewhere in a channel and why haven't I seen them, when the "rules" are in fact buried, no longer accessible, or just hidden in a wall of conflicting information.
If you have an IRC, you have a dedicated community of people who try because they must, if you have a Discord you have a group of randos at best, or at worst a delusional echo chamber.
> Discord is filled with people under the mistaken impression they have documented anything by having a chat with a search feature... when the "rules" are in fact buried, no longer accessible, or just hidden in a wall of conflicting information.
Part of this is a result of some communities not being organized well enough but also making do with fitting an IRC-like format ('servers'/channels/message buffers) into a more structured one. People are willing to compromise on having less suitable structure for denser/more important information since Discord offers such attractive and easy-to-use features in one place.
That said most communities I know of create channels devoted to rules/FAQs, though for things like lists of file announcements/releases (in eg: modding communities) it's messier.
The new forums channel feature has helped by making things sortable and more structured but those only apply to new channels not existing. The forums feature also highlights Discord has recognized how communities have been using their site like a forum for certain channels such as Q&A/releases/showcases (and why comparing it to publicly indexable forums is even more relevant since the feature set will only grow).
IRC can be accessed by any client adhering to IRC standards which are free and open.
Discord can be accessed by any client adhering to Discord standards, which are closed and proprietary.
Nobody has an obligation to publish information for public access, nor is free necessarily superior to proprietary or vice versa, but Discord is absolutely less accessible than IRC or HTTP(S) as an objective fact.
>Discord can be accessed by any client adhering to Discord standards, which are closed and proprietary.
It's worse. Official Twitter account: >All 3rd party apps or client modifiers are against our ToS, and the use of them can result in your account being disabled. I don't recommend using them.
https://twitter.com/discord/status/1229357198918197248
In practice you can't have a client that has local chat history, local search, or just better information density on the screen, and simultaneously hope to not have your account nuked.
Like I said: Accessed by any client adhering to Discord standards, which are closed and proprietary.
Discord standards include "official Discord", which doesn't take away from the point.
2 replies →
99.9% of users don't care about any of that. Users want embedded media, custom emotes, free fully featured clients on every device they use (any client that needs a bouncer doesn't count), integration with desktop software such as games, video streaming / screen sharing, and voice calls.
Notice that every single chat software used by normal humans (iMessage, Google chat, FB messenger, etc) has most of these features, just with much lower bitrates than Discord.
For the very few users that don't need any feature they didn't have in the 90s, IRC is still around. The rest of us just add one of many text logging bots to our discord servers.
You only let users design a product or tool if they are better at it or more correctly if you are even worse at it. Users don't want fire exits or seat belts. They basically want tasty food that kills them. It if can be more tasty and kill them faster they all want it. Even better if the product kills other people but silently and far away. If it can be slightly cheaper and kill many more people you've done well in their opinion.
Of course sometimes having the user design the product or tool is the only available option. Just remember it is a terrible thing when it happens.
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We already had that with Jabber.
3 replies →
Nah, Free Software is better than proprietary. Discord's attack on privacy and user safety are there to see.
>We're complaining about a problem that was no different in the heyday of IRC.
so the death of lore happened essentially when textual knowledge moved from the printed, physically stored version to the electronic version that has no easy way of going and getting the verifiable source of lore for reference when needed?
sounds about right.
IRC never persisted anything so nobody used it as information source.
It's true IRC never stores anything server-side besides user and channel registration details, depending on the network's features and services.
But it is patently false to say nobody used IRC as a source of information. IRC was essential in sharing information quickly back in the 90s. Information on things like natural disasters and the fall of the Soviet Union were shared live using IRC.
The wording was bad but I mean discord stores stuff from the start so you naturally say things with that idea in mind, for later. On IRC you come and talk, it might be logged or not, it's still not part of the spirit when you get into a chan.