Comment by pmarreck
2 years ago
You act as if some percentage less than 100% of Ruby users have extensive experience with JS as well...
OK, maybe it's only, say, 96% of Ruby users, or 100% of Rails users at least
2 years ago
You act as if some percentage less than 100% of Ruby users have extensive experience with JS as well...
OK, maybe it's only, say, 96% of Ruby users, or 100% of Rails users at least
See like, this isn't constructive maligning at all, it's more undirected blanket unniceness.
It costs nothing to actually put down a reason for being upset, versus having totally generic downputs. Very few things are truly rotten to the core, most bad things have some bad aspects but could be much better if ___. If something is rotten to the core the central articles of faith for why that's so should be declared.
Plenty of Ruby folks have gone on to do great friendly Rails ish JS works. Ember.js is very batteries included, tries to show that yes all the potential is there to pave a nice well integrated happy-path system. To assume misery seems unreasonable; many have done fine.
I think we have a real obligation to do better to ourselves & one another than to foster shallow prejudices. Trump in his April 11th Tucker Carlson interview was asked why he thought Dems weren't worried about nuclear weapons. "That's because they don't understand life. That's because they don't understand what it is that you have to understand." This is an irrefutable claim. There's no point to start discussing here, no possibility that the other side might change or have some nuances. Let's not do this. Let's rise to higher places where we take real appraising concerned looks at things, rather than just dismiss stuff out of hand. We don't even have to be nice, but let's at least strive to be somewhat useful.
I think you're taking this way too seriously, it was just a blogger having a little lighthearted jab
Both agree in this case with Mike's right to fun, but also, I feel like the idea of lighthearted jabs has become a steady stream of blows. I said elsewhere:
> Context also matters. Conversationally Mike's words could be an amusing wink & grin quip. I can see that. On paper, & seeing it repeated with the same reckless unnuanced antipathy, it lacks the personal connection & feels indicative of a general attitude situation that is quite prevalent.
"Don't get so upset it's just a joke" is sometimes indeed a legit statement, sometimes we do take things too seriously & need to be reminded. But when the light jabs keep coming, when there's so rarely an attempt to ever bring both parties into the laughing, when it's always jokes at expense, the action whatever it's intent becomes part of a larger behavior that is more than a lighthearted jab.
How many folks would stand up and say, no, there is no pattern of behavior about JS receiving short shift put downs? Do folks think there is no issue? How above board Vs how trashy do we think we've gotten with how programmer culture especially those parts that don't like it treats JS? What other parts of programmer culture endure repeated joke making at their expense today?
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> It costs nothing to actually put down a reason for being upset, versus having totally generic downputs
Actually, it does cost something- time and effort- but thanks to the latest AI, I can cut some of that out right now:
As an Elixir enthusiast, I'd like to point out some technical criticisms of JavaScript and its ecosystem, particularly in comparison to Elixir's approach to dependency management and community.
A) Dependency bloat: The JavaScript ecosystem, especially when working with Node.js, often suffers from excessive dependencies. Even when you require just a few dependencies for your project, you may end up pulling in a large number of indirect dependencies. This can lead to increased complexity, slower build times, a larger attack surface for potential security vulnerabilities, and an ever-growing workload spent applying security fixes that have nothing to directly do with the purpose of the web app.
In contrast, Elixir's dependency management system, powered by Mix and Hex, encourages a more conservative approach. Elixir libraries are often designed with minimal dependencies, and the community values self-contained, focused libraries.
B) Security concerns: The extensive use of third-party packages in JavaScript projects can expose your application to security risks. When you pull in a large number of packages, you become responsible for ensuring that all of those dependencies are up-to-date and secure.
Elixir's ecosystem tends to have fewer dependencies, reducing the potential attack surface. Additionally, Elixir's focus on immutability and the actor model can help minimize the impact of security vulnerabilities.
C) Lack of native concurrency and parallelism: JavaScript is single-threaded by design, which can limit its ability to take full advantage of multi-core systems. While Node.js introduced asynchronous I/O to help mitigate this issue, it can still be challenging to build highly concurrent applications in JavaScript.
Elixir, built on the Erlang VM (BEAM), provides excellent support for concurrency and parallelism through lightweight processes, message-passing, and the actor model. This allows Elixir applications to scale across multiple cores and handle a large number of simultaneous connections more efficiently than most JavaScript applications.
D) Callback hell and async/await complexity: JavaScript has traditionally relied on callbacks for asynchronous programming, which can lead to a phenomenon known as "callback hell" when dealing with nested callbacks. While the introduction of async/await has improved this situation, it can still be cumbersome and confusing for developers.
Elixir offers a cleaner approach to concurrency with its process-based model and message-passing mechanism, enabling easier-to-read and maintainable code.
E) Mutable data- One of the key differences between Elixir and JavaScript is the way they handle data. Elixir enforces immutability, meaning that once a data structure is created, it cannot be modified. Instead, operations on data structures in Elixir return new versions of the data, leaving the original untouched. This approach offers several advantages compared to JavaScript's mutable data structures:
F) Community values: The JavaScript community is known for its rapid pace of change and the constant introduction of new libraries, frameworks, and tools. While this can drive innovation, it can also lead to fragmentation and inconsistency across projects.
The Elixir community tends to be more focused on stability, long-term support, and collaboration. This can result in a more consistent and cohesive ecosystem, where tools and libraries are more likely to work together seamlessly.
In conclusion, while JavaScript has its strengths and has undoubtedly played a vital role in the growth of web development, its dependency management and ecosystem can be seen as less than ideal from an Elixir enthusiast's perspective. Elixir's dependency management system, focus on concurrency, and community values offer a more robust, sane and secure alternative.
(How's that for "actually putting down a reason" as to why Javascript is terrible? Hey, you asked!)
Works for me! Very much matches the MO I've been using as "JS is wild, ain't it great!," so I tend to agree with the shown perspective.
I also think a huge amount of these tend to be pretty typical conservative-developer overconcern (see Yegge's Notes From The Mystery Machine Bus https://gist.github.com/cornchz/3313150), governing yourself on fear, that is probably not really as fully warranted or deserved.
But I'm also a huge fan of wild & fun & diversity. I also love that we try & do other things, that programming languages are not a Last Man Standing situation, & that we have great technical ecosystems with caring trying folks finding new ways to move forward & progress like Elixer. I look forward to seeing what lessons there prove really valuable (and perhaps aping them)! It's a choice in JS world but I do use immutable.js, for example, and it's great & as described as an advantage above. Ditto for some fp tools, but often I will mutate & use effectual/imperative styles, I often find there are significant performance or understandabity wins.
I would say, yes, the cost of talking vs snarking may be real, but it doesn't have to be this large & well examined a list as you've madd. I don't like JS, the amount of dependencies terrifies me. I don't like JS, it's too fragmented. I'd rather use Elixer, I like having a good actor model underpinning my ecosystem. Sharing some sort of tidbit can help calibrate where a person is & turn destructive contagious negativity into healthy discourse.
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