Comment by fwungy
3 years ago
The founders designed a system that was slow to act on purpose. They did not want a strong federal government.
Given how difficult it is to predict policy outcomes this is probably a good idea. Even if a collection of policies are good on the individual level there is no way to figure out if the interaction will be net positive, nor if the cost of remedy reverses the calculus.
1. The much-mythologized founders disagreed on how strong the federal government would be; the first political parties were the Federalists and Anti-Federalists (technically the Democratic-Republicans, but carrying on that same ideology).
2. Filibusters are not in the Constitution, weren't possible for decades after it was signed, weren't used for half a century after it was signed, and didn't become the "sixty votes required for anything" tool they are today until 10-15 years ago. The founders had nothing to do with it.
You're incorrect, the first filibuster was 11 years after the Constitution was ratified and have been common since 1917 and common in their current form since 1970 (that's 53 years not 10-15)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster_in_the_United_State...
Using the filibuster the way it's used now and not actually trying to come to a compromise is definitely new. It's not something that changed about the rule itself, but about the way it's used. See the graph in this article: https://www.statista.com/chart/25929/number-of-senate-filibu...
IMO it all comes down to the insight that the opposition party has nothing to gain from cooperating. If something good gets passed, the majority party gets the credit. If nothing gets passed, the majority party gets the blame, regardless details how that outcome was achieved and what role the minority party played. So blocking everything is the best strategy. IMO, it's disgusting to have politicians put party over country, but here we are.
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> common in their current form since 1970 (that's 53 years not 10-15)
A chart of filibuster usage over the past ~century speaks for itself: https://bit.ly/3mL6IOU
And that's not even fully up to date: the 2019-20 session ended with 298 cloture votes and the 2021-22 session with 289, per https://www.senate.gov/legislative/cloture/clotureCounts.htm .
> the first filibuster was 11 years after the Constitution was ratified
Sure, whatever - your citation is "wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster_in_the_United States_Senate" and mine is "wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster#Senate". The exact details don't matter: the relevant points are that it's not a mechanism created by the Constitution, was not common in the lifetime of the Constitution's drafters, and has massively different effects on the governance of the country now than it did in the 20th century, much less the 19th or 18th.
Not coincidentally, 10 to 15 years ago is around when people started viewing the "other" party as "evil." You can justify a lot of behavior when you declare yourself full of righteous indignation.
You were not alive in the 80s then. Democrats and civil society hated Reagan for what he did to this country. He was definitely seen as evil.
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I'm not sure that makes sense. The modern filibuster is a bipartisan agreement for inaction.
It's really a bipartisan agreement to defer to Senate Republicans on everything controversial, and to let them take both the blame and credit for it. Democrats are happy with that because when their votes don't count, they can pretend to support anything. When Democrats lose, it energizes their base. Republicans are happy to take credit for economically liberal and nationalistic legislation. And for the legislation that just rewards the wealthy for being wealthy (say, bailouts), movement right-wing and libertarian Republicans can vote against it (and they're mostly in the House) while small consistent groups of Democrats can cross over to make sure it passes anyway.
This is friends cooperating.
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Seems like a fair number of democrats probably thought Nixon was a criminal and Reagan was satan and ghwb was a liar and gwb was a warmonger and trump was a fraudster. Also seems like a fair number of republicans probably thought Clinton was a degenerate and Obama was subhuman and Biden is illegitimate, which makes 10-15 a pretty low estimate.
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The fact that they founded a nation that has last as long and successfully as the USA is extremely impressive, in the same way Apple is impressive even though Steve Jobs was not a perfect person, except the USA is orders of magnitude more impactful.
Simply on the basis of accomplishments, whether for good or bad, the founders rank amongst the greatest people to ever exist.
Where not otherwise stated, the branches of government are free to decide how to conduct their own internal business. The House and the Senate, for instance, get to decide the rules on how to conduct the votes for legislation, how the bills are even made ready for voting in the first place, etc.
It can really be no other way, short of stuffing all the parliamentary rules like that into the Constitution.
The filibuster began its current form almost immediately after the Constitution was amended to require the election of Senators.
Sure, the founders in 1776 desired a weak federal government.
But the writers of the constitution in 1788 wanted a strong one because the existing weak one sucked.
The founders in 1776 were happy with things in 1788 and generally opposed the constitution. After reading the articles of confederation (yes I actually did that), there are some things that should have been cleaned up, but overall I think it was a good enough system that didn't need to be replaced.
It wasn't, then or in the 1860s, hence the strong, modern, adaptive federalism we have today that treats states as provinces and makes important things move quickly.
One could squint and say states matter today, but that's just admitting a need for glasses. They are ghosts of what they were, and increasingly need to be retired.
It will be nice when we put to pasture the policy-as-experiments across states for things that are clearly universally demanded: finance, health insurance, women's medical care, education, defense, gun control, decreased corporate control of the food supply, transportation, environmental regulation, and so forth. It's amazing how much the modern GOP has pushed folks towards this, may they continue their business Republican-led shenanigans to unite the country and encourage progress when otherwise we would be slovenly.
Why is this the case? Duplication of fixed costs are expensive.
Let's get rid of these crufty overindulgent home-owners-associations-on-steriods and federalize already.
(paragraphs 1, 4 serious, the rest in jest)
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The states switched to the constitution because the confederation was too weak and didn't handle or clarify many important issues. Most of the founders were still around.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation_period. "...could not accomplish anything independent of the states. It had no chief executive, and no court system. Congress lacked the power to levy taxes, regulate foreign or interstate commerce, or effectively negotiate with foreign powers. The weakness of Congress proved self-reinforcing, as the leading political figures of the day served in state governments or foreign posts. The failure of the national government to handle the challenges facing the United States led to calls for reform and frequent talk of secession".
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I don't think this is right. I've read a bunch of people who didn't like The Constitution, but they weren't making full throated arguments for just keeping the status quo. Can you point me to arguments from "the founders in 1776" for just keeping the Articles in their form at the time?
That only makes sense if you think slavery should’ve never been abolished. How would it have ended under the Articles of Confederation?
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>But the writers of the constitution in 1788 wanted a strong one because the existing weak one sucked.
The founders wrote reams upon reams discussing exactly what they wanted to do with the constitution and how they intended each and every bit of the constitution to work toward that goal. The intent was basically "we need just a little more centralization in order to deal with the truly national issues."
The government they created to replace the articles of confederation was weak by the standards of the time let alone modern ones.
The problem now is that the government is large and it is nearly impossible to shed the cruft that has accumulated.
The size is less a problem than our system stabilizing at two viable parties, both of which would stand to lose a great deal of power if they actually fixed some of the core problems with the Constitution.
It's not that the government is "large". It's that the representatives from different parties are unable to work together to get stuff done. I think it's mostly the way the media cover politics - they can't be seen to be weak.
Nothing ever gets shed or revised. The stale regulatory agencies are captured, corrupted, and stale/weak.
OSHA has no teeth (they are just a nuisance to the scofflaws)
FTC is underpowered
EPA needs shut down
FDA is on record for enabling very harmful medical devices
I remember something about Boeing colluding with regulators to put people in harms way.
I could hop on a search engine and dig up a tome-worth of completely unacceptable shit from the last 40 yrs in this regard.
We'd be so much better if there were no environmental rules, wouldn't we? Medical regulation, who needs it?
"Starve the beast" is a political strategy employed by American conservatives to limit government spending by cutting taxes, to deprive the federal government of revenue in a deliberate effort to force it to reduce spending.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast
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"The founders" did not create the filibuster. They actively debated whether it should require more than a simple majority to pass legislation, and decided that was a bad idea. They had already designed a system with a ton of friction in it. It didn't need one more hurdle.
The founders added a bunch of checks and balances but not the filibuster. The fillibuster was more of a gentlemanly agreement until the 1970s and it wasn't until the Obama era that it was regularly used on almost every single vote.
But now we have a strong federal government that can't agree enough to keep up with the needs of it's citizens. The worst possible outcome, IMO.
Or perhaps the predictable outcome?
The founders didn’t create the filibuster because they already created a fuck load of checks on the majority. Making even more is senseless.
> The founders designed a system that was slow to act on purpose. They did not want a strong federal government.
Spot on. Yet we continue to insist on using the system in a way (i.e., overly strong fed gov) that it's not good for. This isn't a Dem or Republican issue. It's history.
And the more taxes Uncle Sam collects, the stronger and more bloated he gets. At some level we need to come to terms with the fact that we're using a screwdriver as a hammer. That doesn't work well. Ever.
The founders also designed a system that a very few people got to vote, and with the assumption it would take days for representatives to hear from their constituents.
Yet nobody seems to be saying the answer is going back to horses and written mail in the name of making our government fit our lives better.
It's all in the name: The United States. States is the key word.
No one is suggesting horses or written email.
It's a simple understanding of history, and a practical and honest observation of how dysfunctional things continue to be. Yet we keep pushing that the answer is more of the same? That's naive. That's not sustainable.
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> difficult it is to predict policy outcomes
Are they really - or are they pretty obvious to anyone who casually glances at the headline of the policy, but the consequences are a problem after the next election. If you win you can always just blame the other side and if you lose you can blame the other side as well.
That might had make sense 200 years ago when Fed government was small. Nowadays it is a slow death sentence to the country.
Quite the opposite! Scalia had a great speech[0] where he argued that our Constitution is weak compared to other nations of history but had outlived those nations because of its slow nature to act. The point being, it doesn't matter how great your constitution is if your country is dead.
[0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ggz_gd--UO0
> it doesn't matter how great your constitution is if your country is dead.
Why is the longevity of a nation more important than the values it stands for (as laid down in its constitution)? One could argue that it's better to have a great constitution that treats its citizens equally and fairly, even if the nation is short-lived and eventually disintegrates into smaller nations.
The interpersonal equivalent of this would be "It doesn't matter how great your relationship is if your marriage is dead". I'm not sure many would agree with keeping a marriage alive at any cost.
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Several features of or accidents-resulting-from the US constitution amount to that. With the added "fun" that they also create a system in which fixing any of them is unlikely, from within the system.
There's a reason even we don't tend to push a US-style system on fledgling democracies, when setting them up. It's got well-known, grave, fundamental, and avoidable flaws.
The big problem is that neither party in power wants to change the system. After all, they're beneficiaries and creators of the status quo. This could only change if somehow a new party emerged, which is quite unlikely.
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"Weak government made sense when it was small but we made it bigger so we should make it stronger now too" is certainly a take, but not a particularly good one.
The vast majority of things the government touches turn to shit, including things with wide bipartisan support. How does making government able to do more, faster, fix that?
>The vast majority of things the government touches turn to shit
Overtime I've really begun to see this as propoganda that Reagan invented based on little to no empirical data. I'm not convinced that the government is anymore dysfunctional than any large corporation. The belief that the everything the government touches turns to shit does far more harm than good; and furthermore gets in the federal government's way of actually solving problems. The federal government may have a problem with incentives (like any corporation), but it's hard for me to believe they are inept. It ends up being a self fulfilling prophecy - the government tries to do something, a hundred road blocks are put up for fear of ineptitude, then when the government is slow due to said roadblocks, they are called inept. When those roadblocks are removed - for example in the vaccine distribution of 2020, it's clear that the government is capable of good outcomes. Millions of highly controlled and sensitive vaccines were deployed across the country in only a couple months under an administration that nearly became hostile to its deployment.
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The Founders were of diverse positions and ideas on the topic.
A couple overly simplistic examples:
Jefferson wanted the Constitution rethought every 19 with modern wisdom to prevent it becoming a carceral joke society laughs at as dated and sad.
Madison felt the future was forever obligated to fit themselves into a past framework as a kind of thank you for the hard work the long dead performed.
“They did not want a strong federal government” is overly reductive and normalizes into a boring sound bite what was really a complex and lengthy back and forth.
It would be fair to say that most feared a strong executive turning autocratic/monarchic but that’s about all they agreed on readily.
I suppose I fall into Jefferson’s camp. Paraphrasing, he wrote to Madison “clearly the dead so not rule the living.”
To the flames with this outdated gibberish. To us it’s all hand me down spoken tradition we never witnessed anyway.
The system the founders designed didn't even have an income tax. We should go back to that.