Comment by tyingq
3 years ago
I get what you're saying, but the median income for SFO is way below what tech people get paid. "barely livable" is perhaps a bridge too far for the $300k+ crowd. :)
3 years ago
I get what you're saying, but the median income for SFO is way below what tech people get paid. "barely livable" is perhaps a bridge too far for the $300k+ crowd. :)
Maybe. But I had a big house in the “good school system” in the Atlanta burbs built in 2016 for $335K. Even today that would cost around $550K. It would take more than $300K to duplicate our lifestyle in the Bay Area.
I’ll take my former $150K in the burbs of Atlanta over $300k in the burbs any day.
And before the usual responses implying I’m disdaining what I can’t have, I current work for BigTech remotely.
You spend on a lot of things beyond housing, and most things outside of housing are about the same price between regions, so even if your housing costs is half as cheap, you are still falling behind on half as much salary. This is especially true for retirement savings, since you don’t have retire in a HCOL where you earned that money, and that expensive house can be sold, perhaps with some kind of profit to offset the extra interest paid, later.
Gas, property insurance, car insurance for your home (especially since insurance companies are starting to refuse to sell in the state) and even food is more expensive.
To put some real numbers on it.
My 30 year fixed 3.5% mortgage all in from 2016 - 2021 was $2185 and that included the FHA PMI since I only put 3.5% down. I refinanced in 2021 to a 15 year mortgage and bought points and got rid of the PMI. My house is now worth close to twice that.
My mortgage? 1.97% fixed 15 year - $2550 and $1575 of that goes toward principal. My total household expenses as of March 2020 when I was making “only” $150K with my wife working part time making $25K was around $6000. We were bringing home after taxes and before retirement savings about $10500 after maxing out my retirement savings it was about $9300 a month.
And if you haven’t noticed, people are moving away from the west coast and office occupancy is down - that doesn’t bode well for home prices long term.
Our lifestyle is a little different now (see below). But out of my base income which is still only $160K - and my wife no longer works -with the rest coming from RSUs, we still manage to pay all of our expenses and I’m able to max out my 401K.
(https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36306966).
I don’t think people who have been in the tech bubble understand how easy it is for a two income earning family to accumulate wealth where one is making your standard enterprise dev tech salaries in a major non west coast city.
Most couples I know our ages where one is a mid career developer also has a spouse working making at least $70K (the average salary of a college grad). You can do quite well in most cities with a household income of $220K.
If you’re younger and single making $135 to $170K - typical for a developer with 5 years of experience outside of the west coast - you can find an apartment or buy a condo in the city for $2500/month.
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The median person in SFO lives a way worse life than a median person in Ohio
Eh, you'd be surprised how much being able to walk to things, and generally being in a major international city improves your quality of life if that's the kind of thing you prefer...
I’ve been to San Francisco and I’ve been to Ohio. I would much rather be a median income earner in any part of Ohio than a median income earner on the west coast.
How many people making the median income in San Francisco are living in a walkable area?
I lived in SF for 9 years. Good memories. And during peak tech boom you could easily shield yourself from the worst of the city. Ubers were cheap, office perks kept you from venturing out, and foot traffic was high enough to make the open air drug use less visible.
But since 2020, it became absolute misery.
I moved to NYC, and I’m much happier here. So your point about being in a walkable city still stands.
Is there actual data that compares the quality of life for this? I’m curious to see how my city stacks up.
Only if you define "good life" as having a big house with a big yard.
For literally anyone raising a family, a "good life" isn't actively trying to minimize the loss of every penny of your money to outrageous cost of living, childcare, etc -- all while trying to justify the existence of a "diverse cultural experience" while dodging crack addicts, crime, and other increasingly untenable issues.
Last time I ate in SF, I walked past a guy smoking crack on the sidewalk. But, yeah... big house with a big yard is nice.
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Obviously the mileage varies for each person, but my own house on my own land is more enjoyable and fulfilling than anything a city can offer me.
If you have children, you want to be in the “good school system” at least. If you are working from home, you also want a separate office.
Maybe, but the average person there isn't “barely living” either.
> but the median income for SFO is way below
Yes, it's a huge problem. There are greedy people buying more houses than they can use as investment vehicles, renting them out to everyone else who can't afford housing at unaffordable prices, and that ultimately increases prices across the board on everything because local businesses and service industry also need to rent commercial space and personal space -- and that ultimately comes from greedy landlords who keep lobbying against building more housing.
Most of SF is NOT living a life that I would call "livable". Having roommates in late 30s out of necessity rather than choice, and working out of a bedroom with no sunlight and not retrofitted for earthquake and fire safety and removed of mold spores isn't even ethical IMO, but that's the reality that lots of people live in.
> Having roommates in late 30s out of necessity rather than choice
1. It's not as bad as you describe it. Not for tech workers, at least. Please go to the lady working at Walmart and ask her about her income and living arrangements before you rant about $300k a year.
2. Of course it's by choice. Nobody is forced to live in SF or the bay area. Especially not people in tech.
Yeah, they just need to put up a bunch of 10 story condo complexes all over the Bay Area. It's insane that Tokyo is so much cheaper than Mountain View