Comment by JangoSteve
14 years ago
Even without debating the science and signal processing arguments raised...
In any test where a listener can tell two choices apart via any means apart from listening, the results will usually be what the listener expected in advance; this is called confirmation bias and it's similar to the placebo effect. It means people 'hear' differences because of subconscious cues and preferences that have nothing to do with the audio, like preferring a more expensive (or more attractive) amplifier over a cheaper option.
The human brain is designed to notice patterns and differences, even where none exist. This tendency can't just be turned off when a person is asked to make objective decisions; it's completely subconscious. Nor can a bias be defeated by mere skepticism. Controlled experimentation shows that awareness of confirmation bias actually increases rather than decreases the effect!
Doesn't that completely negate his conclusion, that there is no point to distributing 24/192 music? If people want to pay for 24/192, and even he just admitted that they will legitimately enjoy it more, how can you conclude there is no point?
Life is short. I want to enjoy things. Whether or not my enjoyment can be quantified or scientifically defended, I really don't give a shit. But that's okay, if you don't want to sell me 24/192 music, Amazon will. Between this and DRM-free content, it's no wonder I buy all my music from Amazon these days.
There is a perversion going on both ends here. And by perversion I mean a distortion of truth in a bid to make a profit. This is not the worst that can happen, but is just worth mentioning. You probably put more mildly, but I am bit more harsh. Some people are irrational and spend money of stuff that they don't need and another group of people are perpetuating the lies and the marketing in an effort to extract the maximum amount of money from the other group (In other words your basic market setup).
Audiophiles are quite a fascinating group. These are people that can be rather rational in some respects (they could be doing research in some lab somewhere) but when it comes to audio equipment they will shell $2000 for HDMI cables. The salesmen and manufacturers that make these things ("high end" HDMI cables, 192kHz recordings) know this very well and they aggregate around this target set of clients.
I think that is exactly what is happening here. At some point storage capacity is just good enough and one can distribute 48kHz, 16bit audio to everyone. But what do you do next? Everyone is getting that and it is not new and cool anymore. What to do? Well increase the frequency and sell everyone a newer, better, higher fidelity thing, even though objectively human years cannot really hear the difference. Subjectively though, there is a huge difference. If you ask someone who just spent $50 for a 192kHz record if they like it better than say a $20 48kHz one, I bet you 100% of people will confirm that 192kHz sounds better and will be ready to go and buy more.
> Doesn't that completely negate his conclusion, that there is no point to distributing 24/192 music? If people want to pay for 24/192, and even he just admitted that they will legitimately enjoy it more, how can you conclude there is no point?
Ultimately, sure. The world is full of products and services which only add value in this weak sense.
If the same wine tastes better if it's priced higher, then it still tastes better. But I think it's only honest that the consumer be aware that the increased utility from being priced higher is due solely to the fact of it being priced higher. Beyond that, I don't care.
One thing we can all agree on is that music is much more enjoyable if you think you're listening to it through good equipment or from a good source. Ultimately it's only the `thinking' part that matters. So I would make two points:
1. One point he's making is that playing audio sampled at 192khz through regular equipement actively distorts the music in negative ways. So now if you know this now you should enjoy that music _less_.
2. If you're adept metacognition (maybe that's not the right word), you'll realize a) you can get most of the enjoyment by buying equipment that's `pretty decent', and then not worry about it too much. b) you're probably fooling yourself by spending so much time/money worrying about having the best equipment, so you're probably not getting the maximum utility from the experience anyway. Or maybe it's the experience of trying to get the best equipment it self that's enjoyable, not necessarily the increased audio fidelity.
> If people want to pay for 24/192, and even he just admitted that they will legitimately enjoy it more, how can you conclude there is no point?
Sorry, no time to reply. I gotta run and write up my biz plan to distribute 32/384 audio.
SUCKER! I'm already working on 48/768 audio. It's amazing how clear the recordings are.
Well, if we accept that argument, then just about any means of signalling "this sounds better!" will work. How about we choose something that doesn't waste bandwidth?
That's true. It's kind of the Monster Cable model. BTW, I'm not saying that marketing and whatnot should deceive less technical consumers and trick them into spending more money than they should (which is basically what Moster Cable does). But when you explain to technical people why something like 24/192 isn't better (other people in this thread have pointed out, this isn't totally accurate in the first place), and they understand what you're saying but still prefer it, by all means, let them buy it.
This is the same reasoning that somebody used when I was debating with her if insurances should reimburse homeopathic and other alternative treatments. Her reasoning was 'well if it works, it should be reimbursed, doesn't matter if it's from a placebo effect or not'; my position is that they shouldn't be reimbursed, but quite honestly, I don't really have a rational reason for it (at first I thought I had but it turned out I couldn't formulate it, which is the same as not having it).
So, while I have no option (for now) but to acknowledge your position, I still feel dirty for doing so.
If there's no point arguing against something that people will eat up regardless of evidence or fact,
why are you arguing against the conclusion of an article that has this many upvotes on HN?