FedNow is a replacement for ACH which is an ancient, creaking monstrosity. If we can't ever replace or fix old, busted infrastructure because of conspiratorial rambling, we are fucked as a civilization.
I’ve seen a lot of crazy conspiracy theories reveal themselves to be true in the past five years.
Apply some critical thinking on this. Governments and corporate elites worldwide are salivating over the level of surveillance and control that a CBDC will enable.
Possibly so, but an instant payment system is not a CBDC, and I don't see how keeping bank account transfers slow/impossible to initiate for individuals (as seems to be the case for ACH credit transfers) would help against pervasive government surveillance.
ACH and even check clearing are already largely performed by the Fed today!
> I’ve seen a lot of crazy conspiracy theories reveal themselves to be true in the past five years.
Such as what?
>Apply some critical thinking on this. Governments and corporate elites worldwide are salivating over the level of surveillance and control that a CBDC will enable.
How is this any different from the current system? Your cash is 99% digital anyway with basically every transaction completely monitor-able to the Feds under the right circumstances. Don't see how this situation would change much.
It makes me question why we allow government to be in charge of our money, and the price of money (interest rate meddling by govt contractor federalreserve). I suppose we grow up with it and don't question it.
>It makes me question why we allow government to be in charge of our money
This isn't true. Private currencies exist(ed) and are afaik still legal.
The reason we put governments in charge of our money is that up until about a decade ago it was either the government or a corporation as a decentralizes currency was not really implementable. Do you want to get paid in amazon coins only redeemable on amazon? No, you do not.
>interest rate meddling by govt contractor federalreserve
You need to do that. Any currency needs some mechanism to control issuing. If not the government who else could do that?
Because it enables monetary policy which is in large part responsible for the most successful economic century in human history. Why do you think the "natural" interest rate is better than the feds?
Because you get bombed if you don't accept it. There's no "we have allowed", it is "they have imposed", and you and I were born into a slave system. Thank God there are ways to escape, such as crypto and foreign accounts.
If a country’s government really wants to get rid of a lot of large cash transactions, they could phase out some paper money like India (no cryptocurrency required) but in the US it doesn’t seem very likely?
Most money in the US already consists of electronic records in banks. Making bank transfers work better is fairly orthogonal to whether ATM’s work and retailers accept cash.
I wouldn't worry too much about replacing the US Dollar entirely. We're pretty slow even to get rid of the penny. The US Dollar has a _lot_ of fans, I'm certainly one of them.
Cash can be spent without being monitored or blocked.
A recent example of how this might be relevant is with the protests in Canada that lead to the freezing of the protesters’ bank accounts by the government. While I don’t agree with the protesters, the idea of the government freezing their accounts is alarming. After seeing such control exercised, it’s hard to be excited about a cashless society.
This feels like a boat that sailed long ago. I don't know anyone using cash for anything more than small incidental purchases, I'd say it's generally impossible to structure you life around using Cash at a large scale.
For one, unlike cash, the issuing entity can program CBDC to expire on a specific date unless utilized. Another horror use case is that they could track and limit how many hamburgers or pizzas you eat daily, weekly, monthly or yearly!
Why would the government program money to expire? Would the money not become effectively worthless the closer to the expiration date? Why would a business accept transactions from people with money that’s about to expire would that then mean they would be giving away goods and services for free potentially?
When the government does something unpopular against its own people, they can easily quell protestors at scale and force the usage of CBDC adoption by closing ATM withdrawals [0] add savings limits [1] and can incentivise spending with an expiring date. [2]
Whilst many HNers were celebrating UPI as the payment rails from India, it is almost the same thing as FedNow and is planning to put their own CBDC on UPI called E-RUPI [3] taking all the same valid concerns that I have mentioned.
It's bad enough that banks have virtually unlimited insight into my spending habits that we need to give the Feds the same access. I should have the right to buy a big mac without some government server getting pinged.
Another concern I have heard voiced is that CBCD could be programmed - eg. you can't buy X, or you can only buy Y at certain times, or for certain prices, etc. and has the potential for reduced liberty vs. cash.
I doesn't give the Feds access to anything. Suppose I bank at Wells Fargo and my favorite coffee shop banks at Capitol One. If I pay the shop $4 for a latte, the fed will have NO IDEA who sent that money to whom or for what. All the Fed sees is $4 moving from the Wells to the Cap One Federal Reserve master accounts -- amid a blizzard of millions of other transactions. The difference from ACH is just that these payments are settled in big batches rather than one by one. The Fed will get new and better data on payment volume, but that's all, really.
How will they protect us though unless they know the nature of every transaction we participate in? Are you really responsible enough to take care of yourself? A CBDC would combine the best aspects of company scrips with those of wartime ration tickets!
FedNow is a replacement for ACH which is an ancient, creaking monstrosity. If we can't ever replace or fix old, busted infrastructure because of conspiratorial rambling, we are fucked as a civilization.
I’ve seen a lot of crazy conspiracy theories reveal themselves to be true in the past five years.
Apply some critical thinking on this. Governments and corporate elites worldwide are salivating over the level of surveillance and control that a CBDC will enable.
Possibly so, but an instant payment system is not a CBDC, and I don't see how keeping bank account transfers slow/impossible to initiate for individuals (as seems to be the case for ACH credit transfers) would help against pervasive government surveillance.
ACH and even check clearing are already largely performed by the Fed today!
Which crazy conspiracy theories are you referring to? I am applying some critical thinking here.
9 replies →
> I’ve seen a lot of crazy conspiracy theories reveal themselves to be true in the past five years.
Such as what?
>Apply some critical thinking on this. Governments and corporate elites worldwide are salivating over the level of surveillance and control that a CBDC will enable.
How is this any different from the current system? Your cash is 99% digital anyway with basically every transaction completely monitor-able to the Feds under the right circumstances. Don't see how this situation would change much.
1 reply →
Ah so we are fucked as a civilization.
And by not availing convenience of FedNow, one can stop government in tracks.
feel free to only use cash for everything
What has government ever done for us?
https://youtu.be/Qc7HmhrgTuQ
CBDC is a new acronym for me... For others like me: CBDC == Central Bank Digital Currency
https://www.federalreserve.gov/central-bank-digital-currency...
>replace cash
That is the most important concern. Not even crypto can beat cash for convenience and anonymity.
But having a way to transfer money outside of large corporations and instead through a government regulated service is a good thing.
The ban on bearer bonds should be repealed. People worry about cash because it is the only legal option left.
It makes me question why we allow government to be in charge of our money, and the price of money (interest rate meddling by govt contractor federalreserve). I suppose we grow up with it and don't question it.
Go ahead and question it. What do you think is a reasonable alternative? Actually game it out.
Money wasn’t always the sole dominion of government. There is a reason we’ve ended up at this point. I find it to be entirely reasonable.
>It makes me question why we allow government to be in charge of our money
This isn't true. Private currencies exist(ed) and are afaik still legal.
The reason we put governments in charge of our money is that up until about a decade ago it was either the government or a corporation as a decentralizes currency was not really implementable. Do you want to get paid in amazon coins only redeemable on amazon? No, you do not.
>interest rate meddling by govt contractor federalreserve
You need to do that. Any currency needs some mechanism to control issuing. If not the government who else could do that?
6 replies →
The Federal Reserve sets the interest rate that it loans money at. You are free to loan money to anyone at a lower rate if you wish.
2 replies →
Because it enables monetary policy which is in large part responsible for the most successful economic century in human history. Why do you think the "natural" interest rate is better than the feds?
We have independent central banks because we don't want the "government" (I mean politicians) to control our money.
Because you get bombed if you don't accept it. There's no "we have allowed", it is "they have imposed", and you and I were born into a slave system. Thank God there are ways to escape, such as crypto and foreign accounts.
2 replies →
If a country’s government really wants to get rid of a lot of large cash transactions, they could phase out some paper money like India (no cryptocurrency required) but in the US it doesn’t seem very likely?
Most money in the US already consists of electronic records in banks. Making bank transfers work better is fairly orthogonal to whether ATM’s work and retailers accept cash.
I wouldn't worry too much about replacing the US Dollar entirely. We're pretty slow even to get rid of the penny. The US Dollar has a _lot_ of fans, I'm certainly one of them.
I read remarks where Yellen said explicitly that if FedNow works, they won't need a CBDC. I'll try to dig that up.
What is it about CBDCs you find concerning compared to cash?
Cash can be spent without being monitored or blocked.
A recent example of how this might be relevant is with the protests in Canada that lead to the freezing of the protesters’ bank accounts by the government. While I don’t agree with the protesters, the idea of the government freezing their accounts is alarming. After seeing such control exercised, it’s hard to be excited about a cashless society.
This feels like a boat that sailed long ago. I don't know anyone using cash for anything more than small incidental purchases, I'd say it's generally impossible to structure you life around using Cash at a large scale.
For one, unlike cash, the issuing entity can program CBDC to expire on a specific date unless utilized. Another horror use case is that they could track and limit how many hamburgers or pizzas you eat daily, weekly, monthly or yearly!
> For one, unlike cash, the issuing entity can program CBDC to expire on a specific date unless utilized.
The idea isn't new.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Gesell
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Why would the government program money to expire? Would the money not become effectively worthless the closer to the expiration date? Why would a business accept transactions from people with money that’s about to expire would that then mean they would be giving away goods and services for free potentially?
19 replies →
When the government does something unpopular against its own people, they can easily quell protestors at scale and force the usage of CBDC adoption by closing ATM withdrawals [0] add savings limits [1] and can incentivise spending with an expiring date. [2]
Whilst many HNers were celebrating UPI as the payment rails from India, it is almost the same thing as FedNow and is planning to put their own CBDC on UPI called E-RUPI [3] taking all the same valid concerns that I have mentioned.
Do you really want this?
[0] https://www.pymnts.com/cbdc/2022/nigeria-cuts-atm-cash-withd...
[1] https://reclaimthenet.org/digital-euro-spending-saving-limit...
[2] https://bfsi.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/policy/digita...
[3] https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/what-is-e-rupi-d...
It's bad enough that banks have virtually unlimited insight into my spending habits that we need to give the Feds the same access. I should have the right to buy a big mac without some government server getting pinged.
Another concern I have heard voiced is that CBCD could be programmed - eg. you can't buy X, or you can only buy Y at certain times, or for certain prices, etc. and has the potential for reduced liberty vs. cash.
6 replies →
I doesn't give the Feds access to anything. Suppose I bank at Wells Fargo and my favorite coffee shop banks at Capitol One. If I pay the shop $4 for a latte, the fed will have NO IDEA who sent that money to whom or for what. All the Fed sees is $4 moving from the Wells to the Cap One Federal Reserve master accounts -- amid a blizzard of millions of other transactions. The difference from ACH is just that these payments are settled in big batches rather than one by one. The Fed will get new and better data on payment volume, but that's all, really.
How will they protect us though unless they know the nature of every transaction we participate in? Are you really responsible enough to take care of yourself? A CBDC would combine the best aspects of company scrips with those of wartime ration tickets!
I think you should reconsider your stance.
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That’s what cash is for. You never had any privacy for electronic transactions, might as well nip the idea in the bud.
this is what it is.