Comment by armada651
2 years ago
Is that a serious question? Yes, the French justice system is based on a presumption of innocence, just like any other functioning democratic nation. It is a basic human right under the UN charter after all.
2 years ago
Is that a serious question? Yes, the French justice system is based on a presumption of innocence, just like any other functioning democratic nation. It is a basic human right under the UN charter after all.
You say that, but this doesn't seem like presumption of innocence. A country with a presumption of innocence doesn't take your child away from you without trial.
A presumption of innocence doesn't mean that a trial is needed before (what are supposed to be) basic safety measures.
Judges can issue preliminary injunctions before trial in all places in the world. A justice system that can't take any coercive action until the end of a trial would simply not function.
In particular though, cases like this aren't even related to the presumption of innocence. The state believes that the child has suffered harm, so a judge takes them in protective custody. Who is harming the child remains to be determined, but taking the child into custody is supposed to protect the child immediately.
Of course, this can be, like in this case, wrongly applied to disastrous effects. But it has also saved many children from abusive parents, where leaving them without state protection for years while the trial advances would have scarred them permanently or killed them.
> Of course, this can be, like in this case, wrongly applied to disastrous effects. But it has also saved many children from abusive parents
So what is the relative frequency of these two outcomes? You can't ignore the wrong applications; if they outnumber the proper ones, then the system is doing more harm than good.
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I'm willing to bet that almost all countries have a different standard of proof for taking a child away than for criminal trial, and none will wait for the outcome of a trial to do this.
I don't deny that many other countries may also be missing elements of the presumption of innocence.
Pre-trial detention is a thing pretty much everywhere despite literally locking innocent people up before a trial.
Tough to see how else you would do it - a hypothetical murderer in broad daylight with a ton of reliable witnesses and video evidence would still have to wait for a trial, I don't think anyone would seriously say that this hypothetical person should be free until the trial happens.
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