Comment by TeMPOraL
3 years ago
Yup. And this isn't sabotaging some random webshit SaaS. This is sabotaging critical national infrastructure - infrastructure that's of military relevance, and need I remind anyone, there's a hot war being waged over our eastern border right now.
I feel a good enough prosecutor could pin charges of treason here.
As much as I like to rake the executives over the coal for this, I'm disturbed by the trend of calling anything vaguely against the national interest as "treason". Nowadays if I hear someone is accused of treason absent any context, it could mean anywhere between "knowingly selling nukes to iran" to "lobbied for/against a policy that the accuser thinks is bad". In this case they're arguably scamming the government out of money, but that can hardly be compared to the crime knowingly aiding a known adversary.
> In this case they're arguably scamming the government out of money, but that can hardly be compared to the crime knowingly aiding a known adversary.
If you're crippling infrastructure then you are inherently then you're most certainly aiding adversaries. You cannot fight an adversary if you cannot get goods moved.
If you're scamming the government out of money then you are inherently aiding adversaries. You cannot fight an adversary if you are penniless.
It sounds very comparable to me.
>If you're crippling infrastructure then you are inherently then you're most certainly aiding adversaries. You cannot fight an adversary if you cannot get goods moved.
>If you're scamming the government out of money then you are inherently aiding adversaries. You cannot fight an adversary if you are penniless.
But if you apply this argument it quickly becomes a slippery slope. Running a fraud ring? You're depriving the security services of resources that could have been spent catching spies. Treason. Tax evasion? You're depriving the state of resources. Treason. Jaywalking? Believe it or not, treason. M̶a̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶m̶o̶n̶e̶y̶ profiteering as a government contractor? Dunno man, sounds like you're a c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶e̶r̶r̶e̶v̶o̶l̶u̶t̶i̶o̶n̶a̶r̶y̶ traitor by making the government "penniless".
They're not aiding an adversary, they are the adversary.
People are tired and demand better. It's a spectrum for sure, but crossing the line is crossing the line.
You can "demand better" without resorting to hyperboles as crutch to paint your enemies as being extra bad.
> In this case they're arguably scamming the government out of money, but that can hardly be compared to the crime knowingly aiding a known adversary.
I don't really get your argument. In this case they're intentionally crippling a capability of the Polish state. There does not appear to be any particular intended beneficiary (other than themselves), but any and all enemies of the Polish state foreseeably benefit when the Polish state's abilities are curtailed.
Furthermore, the general understanding of treason does not require aiding a known adversary - it requires attacking, injuring, or otherwise betraying whoever has authority over you.
> I'm disturbed by the trend of calling anything vaguely against the national interest as "treason".
I guess what I'm saying here is that this involves something that is contrary to the national interest in very specific ways. The connection is not vague.
If I'm an American and I arrange to kidnap Joe Biden and hold him for ransom, does that sound like "treason" to you? All I want is money. But someone might think there's an important difference between the effect I'm trying to produce and the effect I actually do produce.
>If I'm an American and I arrange to kidnap Joe Biden and hold him for ransom, does that sound like "treason" to you? All I want is money. But someone might think there's an important difference between the effect I'm trying to produce and the effect I actually do produce.
No, because those crimes typically get prosecuted as terrorism, not treason. Even leaking state secrets rarely get prosecuted as espionage rather than treason.
3 replies →
It's passenger train. No more "critical national infrastructure" than city bus.
It's not like you couldn't transport troops on a passenger train, so I'd say may they never see the light of day again ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. In reality though, I doubt this will result in any serious repercussions for whoever called the shots.
While passenger trains nor city buses are not likely to be used for troops transports, passenger trains and city buses would most definitely be used in the transportation of civilians to places of safety – both modes of transport could be considered critical national infrastructure in a time of crisis.
Here's an article about about a NEWAG train that got derailed while evacuating Ukrainian refugees. There were 250 people onboard. It's the same Impuls model. https://esanok.pl/2022/ustjanowa-wykoleil-sie-pociag-z-uchod...
It's some two dozen passenger trains.