I have always been very very skeptical of the motives and intentions of various BDS groups over the years. Lots of issues with hypocrisy, propaganda, and double standards.
But that doesn't excuse the murder of thousands of civilians in collective retribution for the murder of a few dozen.
It's possible for both things to be true: Hamas is bad and committed a heinous act of terrorism, and Israel is committing a horrifying atrocity against Palestinian civilians in retaliation.
> But that doesn't excuse the murder of thousands of civilians in collective retribution for the murder of a few dozen.
1,200 Israelis were killed, not "a few dozen". 250 were kidnapped and held hostage, of those about 130 are still being held.
Second, Israel isn't "murdering" civilians in collective retribution. It's fighting a war against a neighboring "government" that has just invaded it, slaughtered thousands of its citizens, and has promised to do it again and again.
Many civilians are dying in this war, which is a horrible tragedy, and is unfortunately true of every war, which is one reason wars are so terrible. But it's hard to say this war isn't justified given the promises of Hamas.
As far as i understand, the main goal of the Israel operation is to remove Hamas capability to launch another Oct.7-style attack in the future: prevention, not retaliation (though one can argue if there is a way to achieve this goal with less cost on civilians).
The IDF listening to its own intelligence assessments alone would’ve prevented Hamas from launching that attack. Hence what they are doing is mass retaliation against the entire population of Gaza, not to mention the killings in the West Bank and the suppression of domestic dissent against the war.
The current approach will not achieve this goal. Overwhelming force doesn't stop insurrections unless it goes all the way to genocide or ethnic cleansing. That's what makes the argument especially pointless.
1200+ Israelis, mostly civilians, were brutally murdered on 10/7.
There have already been real-life anti-semitic attacks on people and property. There have been synagogues and cemeteries burned, people murdered, shot, and stabbed, businesses trashed. [0][1][2][3][4] You can find hundreds more sources of recent, very real, physical violence against Jews and Jewish places worldwide.
Jews have been subject to thousands of years of very real pogroms, genocide, and conspiracy theories. These are not "possible" bad outcomes, they actually happened, we're seeing some of it now, and we have every reason to believe that it will happen again.
What is happening now worldwide in terms of anti-semitism is absolutely irrelevant in comparison to the mass murder in Gaza. I come from people who were the recipients of anti-Semitic violence in Europe for centuries. What Israel is doing has only and will only make it worse.
I was responding first and foremost to the assertion that such attacks were merely "possible". I demonstrated that they are actual. They put real people who have nothing to do with this war at risk due to actual antisemitic behavior.
Your characterization of military action against military targets in Gaza as mass murder is an interpretation, but not a reasonable one. Israel was attacked by thousands of Hamas soldiers. Hamas governs Gaza (poorly, and undemocractically, but they do govern it). Israel is responding to the attacks by Hamas by attempting to destroy Hamas. Hamas is still launching rockets at Israel from Gaza even today. They are still fighting.
War is hell. Civilians die, especially when the opposition hides in and under civilian structures. There is no magic weapon or method that will eliminate Hamas without killing civilians. And Hamas has demonstrated over and over that they will not respect ceasefire or stop killing, and they have been widely supported by Gazans. Hamas must be eliminated and Palestinians must actually want and accept peace for there to be peace.
This.
I have always been very very skeptical of the motives and intentions of various BDS groups over the years. Lots of issues with hypocrisy, propaganda, and double standards.
But that doesn't excuse the murder of thousands of civilians in collective retribution for the murder of a few dozen.
It's possible for both things to be true: Hamas is bad and committed a heinous act of terrorism, and Israel is committing a horrifying atrocity against Palestinian civilians in retaliation.
> But that doesn't excuse the murder of thousands of civilians in collective retribution for the murder of a few dozen.
1,200 Israelis were killed, not "a few dozen". 250 were kidnapped and held hostage, of those about 130 are still being held.
Second, Israel isn't "murdering" civilians in collective retribution. It's fighting a war against a neighboring "government" that has just invaded it, slaughtered thousands of its citizens, and has promised to do it again and again.
Many civilians are dying in this war, which is a horrible tragedy, and is unfortunately true of every war, which is one reason wars are so terrible. But it's hard to say this war isn't justified given the promises of Hamas.
>Many civilians are dying […] But it's hard to say this war isn't justified given the promises.
This is exactly the rhetoric that made Hamas think it was okay to kill Israeli civilians. Both think the other is an existential threat.
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> Second, Israel isn't "murdering" civilians in collective retribution.
Dehumanization is the first step to a genocide.
Additionally, this does not explain the violence being done in the West Bank to Palestinians, a population that is notably not ruled by Hamas.
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As far as i understand, the main goal of the Israel operation is to remove Hamas capability to launch another Oct.7-style attack in the future: prevention, not retaliation (though one can argue if there is a way to achieve this goal with less cost on civilians).
> one can argue if there is a way to achieve this goal with less cost on civilians)
Not really, no. There's no argument.
The entire world is calling for a ceasefire because so many civilians are being murdered.
The IDF listening to its own intelligence assessments alone would’ve prevented Hamas from launching that attack. Hence what they are doing is mass retaliation against the entire population of Gaza, not to mention the killings in the West Bank and the suppression of domestic dissent against the war.
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The current approach will not achieve this goal. Overwhelming force doesn't stop insurrections unless it goes all the way to genocide or ethnic cleansing. That's what makes the argument especially pointless.
Without looking it up, how many people do you think Hamas terrorists killed on October 7th?
The initial news reports here in the US mainstream media made it seem like dozens or hundreds at most. The music festival seemed like the worst of it.
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1200+ Israelis, mostly civilians, were brutally murdered on 10/7.
There have already been real-life anti-semitic attacks on people and property. There have been synagogues and cemeteries burned, people murdered, shot, and stabbed, businesses trashed. [0][1][2][3][4] You can find hundreds more sources of recent, very real, physical violence against Jews and Jewish places worldwide.
Jews have been subject to thousands of years of very real pogroms, genocide, and conspiracy theories. These are not "possible" bad outcomes, they actually happened, we're seeing some of it now, and we have every reason to believe that it will happen again.
0. https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/04/world/an-existential-threat-a...
1. https://www.timesofisrael.com/historic-synagogue-in-tunisia-...
2. https://www.timesofisrael.com/armenia-opens-probe-into-arson...
3. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-antisemitic-incidents-up...
4. https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/11/05/i...
What is happening now worldwide in terms of anti-semitism is absolutely irrelevant in comparison to the mass murder in Gaza. I come from people who were the recipients of anti-Semitic violence in Europe for centuries. What Israel is doing has only and will only make it worse.
I was responding first and foremost to the assertion that such attacks were merely "possible". I demonstrated that they are actual. They put real people who have nothing to do with this war at risk due to actual antisemitic behavior.
Your characterization of military action against military targets in Gaza as mass murder is an interpretation, but not a reasonable one. Israel was attacked by thousands of Hamas soldiers. Hamas governs Gaza (poorly, and undemocractically, but they do govern it). Israel is responding to the attacks by Hamas by attempting to destroy Hamas. Hamas is still launching rockets at Israel from Gaza even today. They are still fighting.
War is hell. Civilians die, especially when the opposition hides in and under civilian structures. There is no magic weapon or method that will eliminate Hamas without killing civilians. And Hamas has demonstrated over and over that they will not respect ceasefire or stop killing, and they have been widely supported by Gazans. Hamas must be eliminated and Palestinians must actually want and accept peace for there to be peace.
1 reply →