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Comment by meowface

2 years ago

I don't support how civilians are being treated in Palestine whatsoever, but:

>while condemning the massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud (and other far right parties)

When has Likud ordered massacres of civilians? Or when has any modern Israeli party? I also don't believe Likud is considered far-right in Israel; just "right". There are parties far to the right of them. Not that that's necessarily a good thing, but it's a relative designation.

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meowface

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yodsanklai  2 years ago

> When has Likud ordered massacres of civilians?

Considering that they killed 15K+ civilians in various ways in just a couple of weeks , and bombed two thirds of the buildings in north gaza including hospitals, refugee camps, they were certainly not trying very hard not to kill them. So practically, this doesn't make a big difference.

It seems the order were "bomb anything that may have a hamas member nearby, and don't bother about any civilian nearby (even israelis hostages).

  • edanm  2 years ago

    I don't think you can possibly know that they killed 15k civilians. Those numbers are reported by Hamas and don't contain a breakdown of civilian vs. militant.

    That doesn't change the tragedy of innocents being killed - that's still a horrible tragedy. But Israel is not going around just killing civilians for no reason, as that number makes it seem.

  • selestify  2 years ago

    Considering that those very hospitals were used as military bases and that Hamas is hiding among the population, the numbers alone don’t say anything about how hard Israel is trying or not trying to kill civilians.

    Besides, even if that were the order, that doesn’t make it illegal or immoral. Destroying military assets is an essential part of war. If you want civilian losses to be minimized, you’d do well to keep military assets clearly delineated from civilian zones. If you don’t and your people die as a result… well, that’s on you, not on the enemy you’re fighting.

  • dlubarov  2 years ago

    "Not trying very hard not to kill them" may be true, but that is still vastly different from a "massacre," which is deliberate by definition.

IOT_Apprentice  2 years ago

I suspect you ignore the history of terrorism by Irgun and the bombing of the King David Hotel, which house the British military command. Menachem Begin was a key player in that attack & was extremely proud of it. Who are the modern day parties following in those footsteps? Why Likud, & Begin was a co-founder of that very party— now led by Netanyahu.

  • YZF  2 years ago

    I think dang made a mistake by allowing this topic onto HN. Nothing good is going to come out of that.

    Begin is rolling in his grave as we speak. There is nothing between today's Likud and any historic version of that party. That's one thing.

    The Likud (under the leadership of Sharon, who is also rolling in his grave) is also the party that withdrew from Gaza and handed it to the Palestinian Authority, dismantling settlements (by force). The Likud (under Begin's leadership) was the party that made peace with Egypt and gave Sinai back, also dismantling Israeli settlements (by force).

    I don't think the history of the Irgun is really relevant here. At any rate, the views of the Likud shifted substantially and current party called "Likud" has really zero connection to the Likud at the time of Begin/Shamir/Sharon etc.

    • JumpCrisscross  2 years ago

      > dang made a mistake by allowing this topic

      Strongly disagree. There are honest debates and questions here. I am learning from them, though I’m also fact checking everything that surprises.

      8 replies →

    • hodgesrm  2 years ago

      > I think dang made a mistake by allowing this topic onto HN. Nothing good is going to come out of that.

      Actually I find the discussion on HN has brought up many useful insights on a complex conflict that provokes emotional responses. It's a model that many other communities could learn from.

  • meowface  2 years ago

    I wasn't ignorant of it - that's why I said "any modern Israeli party". I'm aware past Israeli/Zionist groups have engaged in terrorism and in some cases deliberate civilian massacres. As far as I know Likud hasn't within the past 50 years.

    • markdown  2 years ago

      What do you call what's going on right now, if not deliberate civilian massacres in order to get to relative handful of freedom-fighters/terrorists hiding amongst them?

      11 replies →

    • markdown  2 years ago

      What do you call what's going on right now, if not deliberate civilian massacres in order to get to relative handful of fighters hiding amongst them?

      6 replies →

jakelazaroff  2 years ago

Here is a long list of Israeli politicians and military officers who have declared their intent to massacre civilians:

- Israeli Prime Minister (!!) Benjamin Netanyahu: "You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember." [1]

- IDF spokesman Daniel Hagari: "we're focused on what causes maximum damage" [2]

- Israeli defense Minister Yoav Gallant: "I have ordered a complete siege on Gaza: no electricity, no food, no fuel, no water. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly." [3]

- Israeli Minister of National Security Itamar Ben-Gvir: “As long as Hamas does not release the hostages in its hands - the only thing that needs to enter Gaza are hundreds of tons of explosives from the air force, not an ounce of humanitarian aid” [4]

- IDF Reservist Major General Giora Eiland: “The State of Israel has no choice but to turn Gaza into a place that is temporarily or permanently impossible to live in" and "Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieve the goal." [5]

- Israeli President Isaac Herzog: "It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true." and "Of course there are many, many innocent Palestinians who don’t agree to this — but unfortunately in their homes, there are missiles shooting at us, at my children." [6]

- IDF Reservist Ezra Yachin: "Be triumphant and finish them off and don’t leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live." and "Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them. If you have an Arab neighbour, don’t wait, go to his home and shoot him." [7]

- IDF Reservist Major General Giora Eiland: "The international community is warning us against a severe humanitarian disaster and severe epidemics. We must not shy away from this. After all, severe epidemics in the south of Gaza will bring victory closer" and "there’s no reason why the Hamas generals in southern Gaza wouldn’t surrender when they have no fuel, no water, and when plagues will reach them and the danger to the lives of their family members will increase" [8]

- Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant: "Hezbollah is close to making a grave mistake. The ones who will pay the price are first of all the citizens of Lebanon. What we do in Gaza we know how to do in Beirut" [9]

- Israeli Minister for Agriculture and former head of Shin Bet Avi Dichter: "We are now actually rolling out the Gaza Nakba" [10]

- Likud Knesset member Galit Distel-Atbaryan: "Invest this energy in one thing; Erasing all of Gaza from the face of the earth." and "A vengeful and cruel IDF is needed here. Anything less is immoral." [11]

- Israeli Energy Minister Israel Katz: "Humanitarian aid to Gaza? No electrical switch will be turned on, no water pump will be opened and no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli abductees are returned home" [12]

- IDF Lt. Col. Richard Hecht, in response to Wolf Blitzer asking if the IDF knew there were civilians in Jabalya refugee camp before they bombed it: "This is the tragedy of war, Wolf — as you know, we've been saying for days, move south." [13]

[1] https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netany...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-i...

[3] https://twitter.com/marwasf/status/1711392643908071789

[4] https://x.com/davidrkadler/status/1714362716565979534

[5] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/opinion/israel-united-sta...

[6] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-gaza-isaac-herzog_n_65...

[7] https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-vete...

[8] https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1726326606782984506

[9] https://twitter.com/alihashem_tv/status/1723369208191287738

[10] https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1723441134221869453

[11] https://twitter.com/GalitDistel/status/1719689095230730656

[12] https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/energy-minister...

[13] https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/171941227835150748...

  • YZF  2 years ago

    Hagari was not speaking about massacring civilians. He was talking about damage to Hamas/military targets. He did say that Israel is biased towards more damage vs. accuracy.

    This is very propaganda. I've been following the conflict pretty closely and I speak Hebrew. The parent is correct, there is and was no order to massacre civilians.

    It's probably safe to say that protecting Palestinian civilians is not Israel's main priority, but there's a big difference between that and painting a picture of Israel trying to massacre as many civilians as possible.

  • bluish29  2 years ago

    To add to the list.

    - Amichai Eliyahu, Israel's heritage minister: "that "there are no non-combatants in Gaza," adding that providing humanitarian aid to the Strip would constitute 'a failure.'" [8]

    In the same interview: "When asked by the interview whether a nuclear weapon could be used on Gaza, Eliyahu responded: 'That's one way.' " [9]

    [8]https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-05/ty-article/ne...

    [9]https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-minister-suggested-nu...

  • edanm  2 years ago

    Look, I'm not going to go over that last one by one, but a bunch of those are taken out of context, e.g. speaking specifically about Hamas but being presented as being about civilians.

    Some of those statements are also reprehnsible and are should be and are rightly condemned, within Israel as well.

    But do you have a similar list of all the statements that Israeli officials have made that go against these? Because there are far more of those, they just don't make it into circulation like these. There are many, many on the record statements of Israeli officials specifically saying that the war will be conducted justly, morally, while trying to minimize civilian casualties.

    You can choose to dismiss those as "well they have to say it to please the world", and insist that these statements you've linked are the only ones that matter, but then you're just choosing what to believe based on your own prior beliefs going into this.

  • ac130kz  2 years ago

    [flagged]

    • bluish29  2 years ago

      > PS this is funny, instead of replying this guy just downvotes. Why? Because it's the truth.

      I understand your karma doesn't allow you to down vote yet. But FYI you cannot down vote replies on your comments. So it is not funny, it is just not true.

    • Georgelemental  2 years ago

      > there's no state of Palestine

      States are social constructs, if enough people believe they exist then they exist. For 2000 years there was no State of Israel either, until enough people decided to believe in it and build it.

      1 reply →