Comment by yodsanklai
2 years ago
> It's a war!
It looks more as a civilian massacre than a war. Yes, it's pretty obvious that they don't try to kill as many Palestinian civilians as possible. But they clearly show no consideration for civilian lives. What we're witnessing is extremely disturbing to say the least, and we should make Israel stop because nothing can justify what they do. They are entitled to live safely, not to kill thousands of innocents because it suits them.
> Have you ever been to Israel? I'm just curious. Do you know many Israelis?
How is that relevant to the discussion? having Israeli friends should make us accept these horrors? I don't think so.
As cold as it sounds what Israel should be optimizing for is minimizing the number of dead Israelis, now and in the future. Not "because it suits them". The number of Palestinian civilians killed and otherwise impacted is certainly a moral consideration.
If Israel stops now, and Hamas kills 2000 Israelis in 5 years, and then Israel kills 50,000 Palestinians because Hamas is much stronger and the war is much more complex and the population is denser, should we stop now? What is the probability of this outcome? What are the range of outcomes of stopping now, beyond the obvious of less people will die over the next week or 2 weeks, or month, until the next round flares up. We have had many rounds of violence.
How do we weigh the continuation of rocket fire into Israel from Gaza into the equation? What happens if Hamas figures out a technological solution to defeat the iron dome?
There are many many other factors.
How do we weigh the motivation/chances that Hezbollah would attack Israel from the north?
Clearly all the dead people are not coming back to live. All the damage that has been done is done. It's all extremely tragic. The question is where do we go from here. You're saying "we should make Israel stop". Assuming that's even an option (I don't think anyone can make Israel stop at this point) who is going to pay the price of that decision down the road? "we" or Israel?
I don't know. I don't have answers. My opinion is that stopping now will result in more deaths in the future. But I'm not sure. If I was convinced stopping now is the best option for peace I would certainly support it. I hope we are getting very close to the end of the war, at least the more intense phase of it.
I think knowing Israelis will give you some sense of what kind of people they are, and will let you relate to them as people. Something I think is missing from a lot of the discourse. I agree we're seeing horrors. By the way, you should also talk to some Palestinians and get to know them as well fwiw. I've had some pretty interesting discussions in the past with a Palestinian friend.
I do think the USA could make Israel stop on a dime, but has no interest in the politics of doing so. I think Israel is optimizing for getting rid of Palestine - a lot of careful decisions of making it unlivable in Gaza, and calling it Hamas’ fault, and pushing over and over until they can finally get international support for pushing all the surviving residents over a border, then setting up a DMZ like Korea.
I know we're all in the heat of the moment but there's no doubt in my mind the Palestinians are not going anywhere. There's nowhere for them to go. The population of the Gaza strip is going to remain in the Gaza strip. The population of the west bank is going to remain in the west bank. Israel's supporters, and the vast majority of Israelis, understand that. Gaza will be occupied by Israel. It will be under military control of Israel. When the war is over it will be rebuilt.
> As cold as it sounds what Israel should be optimizing for is minimizing the number of dead Israelis, now and in the future.
Yes, I get the logic.
But as someone who isn't either Israeli or Palestinian, I give the same value to any life and I'd like my government to 1. at the very least, not support the ongoing massacres 2. pressuring them to stop what they're doing 3. send help to gaza. I'm not american, but if I was, I'd be very pissed that my taxpayer's money is going to this.
Then one could argue that what is done isn't the best course of action of Israel's safety, regardless of any moral consideration.
> I think knowing Israelis will give you some sense of what kind of people they are,
I have no doubt that Israelis are no different than any other people on earth. But really, this isn't the question here.
> They are entitled to live safely, not to kill thousands of innocents because it suits them.
Them living safely means winning the war by destroying Hamas’ logistics, assets, and ability to launch attacks. Them destroying Hamas means air strikes that unfortunately will inevitably include civilian collateral damage due to how Hamas operates. In my view, this justifies all actions Israel has taken so far.
Additionally, if successfully done, killing Hamas now means fewer Palestinian deaths in the future.
There can be no clearer example of simply thinking Palestinian lives don't matter than this. It's pretty disgusting. You use the word "unfortunately", but the entire gist and underlying assumption of what you're saying is that the death and suffering of Palestinians is not as important as the death and suffering of Israeli civilians.
It’s war. Isn’t it a the case in any such conflict that your people worth more?
Also, the point you and many others fail to understand is that there is no other way for Israel, this is a least bad option. No one is happy about the situation, and both Israel and the Palestin civilians are victims here, all because of Hamas. If you know of any other realistic solution that gets rid of terrorists, I’m sure IDF is happy to hear about that.
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Palestinian lives don’t morally matter in the context of military strikes on Hamas assets. Same as how Israeli lives don’t morally matter in the context of assaults on IDF military assets. The IDF soldiers who were caught off guard and died at their bases? That is unfortunately a part of war. Israeli civilians who might be visiting those military bases at the time they were attacked? Sucks to be them, but their deaths are not a moral wrong.
What would be your examples of wars where enemy civilians were placed at the same level of important as your own civilians? Or where belligerents would be willing to have more of their combatants die to reduce the number of deaths, civilian or otherwise on the other side?
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