Comment by adam_arthur
1 year ago
Batteries can't replace energy generation, it still needs to be generated to be stored. Though it does give you more control over how you generate the power.
Fossil fuels are often used to generate electricity for batteries, which just moves the problem elsewhere. For example, you may be charging your EV with energy generated by a Coal plant.
Similarly, outsourcing manufacturing often moves pollution from domestic to international. If a country heavily consumes goods imported from somewhere like China, they are part of the cause of those greenhouse gases. The pollution has simply been outsourced
Not trying to make a specific point, but often people only think one level deep about these things.
I would say this argument is only thinking one level deep.
If you charge your EV with a coal plant, is that better or worse than a gas car? (It's better.) Are EVs actually being charged with only coal power? (No.) Do we have the technology to replace polluting power plants? (Yes.) Are renewables cheaper than fossil fuels? (Yes.) Do gas cars have the ability to get more efficient as power generation changes? (No.) Do EVs? (Yes.)
Does manufacturing overseas contribute to global warming? (Of course.) If you factor this in, how do US carbon emissions look? (They're going down, both total and per-capita.)
I see you've drawn conclusions from my post where there weren't any... only facts. I didn't make any statement in opposition to pursuing renewables.
Carry on!
The particular facts you chose and your framing express skepticism about the way renewable energy is pursued. I provided additional facts which paint a different picture. Carry on!
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Before feminism, there were no nuclear bombs built.
After feminism, there have been thousands.
I'm only stating facts here.
> but often people only think one level deep about these things.
In my experiences the ones who care about zero-carbon and renewable energy have thought very deeply about these things.
> Fossil fuels are often used to generate electricity for batteries
Yeah, but renewables are already cheaper that fossil fuels in most cases. And charging batteries is one of the most flexible loads for a renewable grid. I don't care if I charge my car on monday or friday.
> For example, you may be charging your EV with energy generated by a Coal plant.
This example is just completely irrelevant by now. Coal is dead.
Even then, it's much better to move the pollution away from where people live, and where you have an opportunity to clean the exhaust gases. (if your country cares about those kinds of things). It's also more CO2-efficient, even when not counting future battery recycling.
> If a country heavily consumes goods imported from somewhere like China, they are part of the cause of those greenhouse gases.
Fair point, but in the context of batteries I'm not too worried. Both USA and EU are now pretty damn serious about on-shoring on near-shoring both material production and battery production.
Also, we now have battery recycling at a commercial scale, which is far more energy and resource efficient.
We WILL have a couple of decades where the green transition will be quite resource and carbon intensive. But as the first big waves of EVs and grid energy batteries start to get recycled that resource use will fall off a cliff.
I made no indication that renewables weren't a desirable goal, or that we shouldn't pursue them. I made no arguments against renewables.
Simply stating facts that are often overlooked. Very often policy focuses on the visible wins while ignoring the "shuffling" of externalities.
If a policy passes that lowers emissions in the USA but increases them in China as a result (due to offshoring or other means), you'll only hear about the first part
Read the article. They explain exactly how batteries can replace (yes, replace) the coal plant. In short: renewables have a hard time matching real-time demand. Clouds come. Wind dies down. What do you do? So in the past they needed that coal plant to add extra generating capacity, when needed. But now, with the batteries, the battery can store the surplus of renewables not instantly needed. Then when clouds come or wind dies done, the energy flow reverses and batteries deliver this surplus, hence smoothing supply.
The article very clearly makes the point that this battery deployment does not replace energy generation.
Right, which is why we have renewables to generate power. The coal plant was there to cover any potential power shortfall on overcast days or unexpected late night power needs.
This is a mostly solved problem, it’s just a matter of building out the infrastructure.