Comment by runarberg
1 year ago
85% of the population of Gaza has been displaced. Officials have from the start constantly stated goals of evacuating people to live in tent cities on the Sinai peninsula. This includes lower or retired officials, leaked documents, and Netanyahu himself to foreign leaders. Make no mistake, this goal is ethnic cleansing. Just because they haven’t been successful, that doesn’t mean this isn’t their goal or that they haven’t been trying. It is my inclination to believe those official given that the reality very much matches their rhetoric.
That you invoke the historical example of the Nazis seems interesting to me. World War 2 is the most devastating war in human history. About 3% of the global population died in that war. You may think Hamas is that frightening but I think this level of destruction is not proportionate to the actual threat imposed by Hamas.
Instead I would like to invoke the historic example of the IRA. Another resistance group that did horrible acts of terrorism, causing countless civilian civilian casualties. IRA was not defeated militarily, instead the Catholic population of Northern Ireland were granted equal rights, and the system of oppression was dismantled.
Israel seem very reluctant to even consider a peaceful solution as an option. So far in the current conflict peaceful solutions has save over a 100 hostages, military options has saved a single hostage (and killed at least 3).
The point with these three goals you—and Israeli officials—claim, is that they are vague or unachievable. Genocide is hardly ever stated as a goal, instead it is hidden by a rhetoric such as these. Particularly the promise of security.
1. If Israel didn't evacuate people from the north, there would be more dead Gazans. 2. Gazans have been begging to go to Egypt; the idea is to allow them to; Egypt refuses. 3. I'm not comparing this war to WW2, I'm comparing the principle that "you can't kill terrorism because it's an ideology" to the comparable principle of "you can't kill nazism because it's an ideology." 4. Of course Hamas was an existential threat to Israel. It literally killed ~1,000 Israeli civilians in a brutal, premeditated mass slaughter, a crime against humanity. If Hamas were stronger, or if Israel were weaker, they'd have killed more. 5. There can be no peace while Hamas is in power, retains hostages, and vows to repeat their atrocities. 6. Not only are Israel's three war aims achievable, but I'd argue they are just months away from achieving the first war aim (neutering Hamas). Time will tell. 7. You started off this thread by saying Israel's stated war aim is to ethnically cleanse Gaza. When I pointed out this is wrong, you changed your argument to some Israeli officials have said that. So you're arguing your interpretation of Israel's war aims supersede the official documentary record.
> You started off this thread by saying Israel's stated war aim is to ethnically cleanse Gaza.
I started off this thread by disputing the claim you made that Gaza is not being carped bombed. To circle back to that point here is an interesting article by the Washington Post Israel has waged one of this century’s most destructive wars in Gaza[1]. Of particular interest is the comparison to the bombing campaign of Aleppo and Raqqa.
ISIS is without a doubt one of the worse terrorist organizations we have ever seen. What makes ISIS particularly bad is that—unlike Hamas, IRA, Mau Mau or the Viet Cong—they are not resisting oppression of an occupying state but for their fight—like the Nazis—are for their own fascistic ideology and dominance. Their strength and brutality was also far worse then Hamas has ever been. And yet, they were defeated in Syria with far less damage and destruction then what the IDF has already imposed (without success) in Gaza.
I want to be absolutely clear though that the people suffering both the ISIS rule and then later the bombing campaigns which successfully deposed them, were indeed horrendous.
Another point of argument here is that there was no peaceful solution to ISIS. There is one for Hamas. ISIS wasn’t resisting oppression, Hamas is—just like IRA, FLN, etc. before them.
1: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/20...
no space to reply. even though we disagree, i thank you for the lack of ad hominems in this discussion, and I appreciate you taking the time for dialogue. a positive step.