Comment by twixfel
2 years ago
It's not ridiculous at all. Not all leaders can be negotiated with, that is simply my point. Maybe as an American you do not understand the depth of feeling, it does not affect you because you don't live here and subsequently you don't care. You can regress into the isolationism that the US likes to embrace every now and then. But we still have to live with an imperialist Russia on our door step.
> (Germany) is a major dove on this issue.
No, they're not dovish, they're just not leaders and not willing to take initiative and require others to move first. That stems from their history. They've sent huge amounts of aid already to Ukraine (~1% of GDP versus 0.2% of GDP for the USA).
> Europe’s economy is in shambles
I mean, it's not as good as the USA's, but it's not in shambles. It's relatively OK. I live here. I'd rather live here than in Russia. Russia is a glorified petrol station with nukes and a military. Europe's economy still absolutely dwarfs Russia's. When I speak to my (many) Russian colleagues, it's clear they'd rather be here in Germany than in Russia.
> US were to push for détente
It's not realistic. The only person who is going to do that is Trump. There's no scenario where we Europeans just give up our security and let imperial war conquests become acceptable on our continent (not yours, yank) for the sake of Trump's ego. Why? Because we think he's completely retarded. Only Americans like him. And how would we benefit exactly from trading away our security? How can the US force us? All it would do is seal the USA's historic break from its European allies (And I know it's not popular at the moment in the USA, but any one with a basic understanding of geopolitics knows that the USA's strongest asset its just how many rich and powerful allies it has). Good luck standing up to China alone, in that case. Then the West is truly fucked!
> Not all leaders can be negotiated with, that is simply my point.
Putin isn't Hitler. People are way too quick to write off negotiation when it is people's real lives at play.
> They've sent huge amounts of aid already to Ukraine (~1% of GDP versus 0.2% of GDP for the USA).
False? not sure where you are getting your numbers from but USA has sent both considerably more in magnitude and as a percentage of the GDP through the end of 2023.
Germany doesn't even spend 2% of GDP on all military expenses (they recently pledged to as it is a new NATO requirement), they are not spending half of that on Ukraine allocation.
> It's not realistic. The only person who is going to do that is Trump.
Wavering support for the Ukraine war is not just a Trump-ism phenomenon. I am not sure how the media reports this in the UK but support is collapsing across both parties in the polls.
A majority of Americans think Trump is stupid too and you are very unlikely to meet a supporter on HN.
> Good luck standing up to China alone, in that case
US policymakers already perceive no will to stand up to China among EU lawmakers.
> And how would we benefit exactly from trading away our security? How can the US force us?
EU+UK citizens will not be willing to pay the full brunt of this conflict for an extended period of time.
The fact of the matter is that most Europeans are much more ambivalent about this conflict than you are implying [0] which is obvious from the polling. Ratchet up the spending and energy price impact to considerable portions of GDP and what will happen?
[0]: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/at-your-service/files/be-hear...
>Putin isn't Hitler. People are way too quick to write off negotiation when it is people's real lives at play.
No he's not Hitler, he's Putin. Putin cannot be negotiated with, that is the point.
>False? not sure where you are getting your numbers from but USA has sent both considerably more in magnitude and as a percentage of the GDP through the end of 2023.
No it is not. My numbers are from the Financial Times: https://www.ft.com/content/ca7fa865-97a1-4013-bde6-b69731b03...
Where are yours from? If you have better numbers, share them.
>Wavering support for the Ukraine war is not just a Trump-ism phenomenon. I am not sure how the media reports this in the UK but support is collapsing across both parties in the polls.
Wavering or collapsing? The majority still support aid for Ukraine. That much is a fact. I am not in the UK anyway, I live in Germany.
Your source for polling is sadly incoherent, just quoting random countries, but judging by this poll, it looks clear that Europeans support Ukraine:
https://neighbourhood-enlargement.ec.europa.eu/news/european...
But to some extent it does not matter, there is no choice, because Europe is being attacked. It's not as if we have choice but to support them. Arguably more importantly, our establishment supports Ukraine.
>US policymakers already perceive no will to stand up to China among EU lawmakers.
US policymakers firmly believe that the best way to counterbalance China is through strengthening alliances around the world.
>EU+UK citizens will not be willing to pay the full brunt of this conflict for an extended period of time.
We already are. I think a lot of you yanks like to get high on the idea of Europe being seconds from collapse, but actually things here are OK. The worst is over, that first winter after the invasion? Yeah that was tricky, but it's already past now. The way you talk it's like we're rationing supplies to make ends meet to raise money for another missile. Yes the USA is richer than Europe, but Europe is the richest place in the world after the USA, so it's OK, there's no shame in being second place. Everything's OK. Europe will ultimately do whatever it takes to see out Russia's invasion. There's no way a country with an economy the size of Spain can outlast the entirety of Europe. Russia is a paper tiger, as evidenced by how shit its military has performed ever since it invaded.