Comment by shuckles
2 years ago
“Apple improved upon the notoriously unreliable Bluetooth standard and then slightly degraded wired listening by requiring a $9 dongle” is quite a weak anti-trust argument. Almost all innovation comes from this type of vertical integration.
Do you actually use the dongle? It doesn't work with inline mics, making it useless even if you were to carry it around everywhere. It also doesn't work with previous iPhones, so you can't share say a car aux between an old and a new iPhone.
> It doesn't work with inline mics
Is this a new thing? I haven't used this in a while, but the lightning dongle used to work fine with my headphones+mic (also intended for Apple's headphone jack). I know there's some difference in how the headphone connector is set up between Apple and everyone else though.
I'm pretty sure the commenter is misinformed. The dongle worked with the inline mic on my B&O headphones. But it wasn't worth engaging with that point because I think they're wrong even if the dongle doesn't work perfectly for them.
I use the dongle, fwiw. It stays attached to my "good" wired earphones.
I don't really have any strong feelings either way about it. I dropped my phone once, and the dongle took the brunt of it (saving the expensive stuff) but I did have to buy another.
I used the dongle. I left it permanently attached to my headphone cable, and it was a non-issue to “carry it everywhere.” Needing a wired inline mic is a niche of niche, making the argument about antitrust monopoly even weaker.
Needing a mic on a phone is not niche. What made you stop using the dongle?
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It certainly does does. There are multiple TRRS patterns for wired mics mind.
These days the reliability problems of Bluetooth are effectively gone. Sure, it's not a perfect technology, but Bluetooth devices work completely reliably for me across tons of vendors.
Saying Bluetooth itself is unreliable is an outdated view. There are shitty Bluetooth devices yes, but the protocol works fine when paired with good devices
That is my understanding talking with devs who have worked at the lower layers of bluetooth. Well, two problems. The spec is not an easy one to read with a lot of caveats. But the bigger issue is, a lot of companies half ass their bluetooth implementation. Whether we are talking Windows, Android, iOS, macOS, Linux, etc, if you experience bluetooth problems, often it is the device and not the bluetooth code in the OS.
Sounds like XMPP.
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I have high-end Bose headphones from 2020, a new iPhone, and a new Mac. Bluetooth sucks. You're far better off with AirPods than anything else if you're going to use BT.
By the way, it's so bad that I don't use headphones anymore with the iPhone. I use the phone in speaker mode. And the only reason I even have a new iPhone is because AT&T dropped support for my old one.
I have multiple pairs of high end Sony headphones, Pixel buds, numerous Bluetooth speakers, and Bluetooth works reliably when I pair those phones to my AV receiver, my PS5, my Pixel phone, my tablet, or my TV. I rarely have any problems: the audio is clear, the latency is not noticeable, and devices connect quickly and without fuss.
There are corner cases that cause annoyance, and those corner cases are indeed around where Apple is adding on top of Bluetooth: The ability to instantly switch the connected device without needing to disconnect from a previous device, and the ability to pair just by having the devices close. Those features are replicated in the Android ecosystem but are not standard.
If those two features are what you mean by "sucks" then fine. But that doesn't imply that Bluetooth doesnt work reliably, just that it doesn't have these two features broadly supported.
A difference here is that fast pairing and device switching on Android, while not a standard part of the protocol, is open for device manufacturers to support, unlike Apple's versions of these features.
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I have a low end Bose bluetooth speaker that connects up instantly to any of my powered on devices (2x Macbook, iPhone), and can switch between them seamlessly with a button press. I've also never had any issues with Sony WHM1000XM* headphones regarding bluetooth across these devices.
My AirPods frequently hop between my MacBook and iPhone without asking though, because the other device played a split second audio clip.
Strong YMMV I guess.
What causes issues with the Bose? Both my QC35 and QC45s have been paired with multiple iPhone/pad/Mac and seem to work better than most other things.
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I was gifted AirPods, but I'm on the Android ecosystem. I see a huge difference between what I can configure on an Apple device vs my Android devices. For example, on an Apple device I can enable features to help me hear better in a noisy environment which would be nice to have.
I wonder if they are using a proprietary configuration API that is deliberately kept secret or if no Android devs have figured out how to reverse engineer it yet (seems very unlikely).
If the likely former, I'd like someone to address this as well as it almost feels like if they're getting into hearing assistance features, then accessibility becomes important.
I mean, bose is known for selling cheap devices as high end for the past few decades. It's not uncommon for the BoM to be ~10% of the final price.
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AirPods came out 8 years ago. It’s good to hear it’s better now, though that doesn’t comport with my experience. Are you saying you’d prefer a world where innovation was held from the market for almost a decade while standards caught up and made them available to everyone and every product simultaneously?
> Are you saying you’d prefer a world where innovation was held from the market for almost a decade while standards caught up and made them available to everyone and every product simultaneously?
Not really, I don't particularly have a problem with how Airpods went, except that Apple could have moved to standardize or at least open up fast pairing and instant switching, but they didn't.
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> Almost all innovation comes from this type of vertical integration.
In what world?
This is widely accepted business theory. It’s hard to innovate when you depend on suppliers external to you for key technology.
I'm fine with this. Apple can extend sucky BT, Apple can make their faster Apple Silicon chips, Apple can make iMessage since SMS is trash, Nvidia can do CUDA cause OpenCL sucked, whatever. Just don't also intentionally kneecap the competitors by removing their interfaces.
That is very different from saying "Almost all innovation comes from this type of vertical integration."
Innovation comes from many sources and while vertical integration does assist in some cases, your assertion steps so far past plausible that it is simply ridiculous.
What innovation? At the time of removal from iPhone, the LG V35 had a headphone jack but was thinner and lighter than an iPhoe with the same IP rating, and a better camera.
> Almost all innovation comes from this type of vertical integration.
Really? That's a bold claim. Having a large number of companies that are able to offer competing products and services tends to lead to innovation.
Yes, basically non-Apple headphones are pointless for iPhone owners now. Doesn't matter how much Bose or anyone improves their tech, the port they relied upon got removed. Apple has locked together iPhones and headphones.
I don't get the sense that third party headphones don't work just fine with iPhone, other than a seeming indication that iPhone users seem to think normal Bluetooth doesn't work well, which might indicate Apple has either not invested in their standard Bluetooth stack or at worst, actively degraded it.
But I'm doubtful of this, it seems more likely that some Apple users have an outdated view of how reliable standard Bluetooth actually are, even when paired with their iPhones.
Are you aware there are plenty of wireless headphones that work with iPhone?
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I don't know what you mean. My Sony headphones work perfectly with both my iPhone and Mac
Vertical integration and competition are orthogonal. Vertical integration is when Apple improves upon Bluetooth with a proprietary enhancement to the standard. Competition is Pixel Buds advertising a similar feature set.
Huh? It sounds more like they deliberately broke everyone's devices except their own so you either have to pay them more to continue using your existing headset with an adapter, or if you have a bluetooth headset you're just shit out of luck unless you buy an Apple headset. How is that not anticompetitive?
No actually any iPhone with a headphone jack continued to have a functioning headphone jack. And competitors marketed their phones with headphone jacks for a year and ended up also abandoning that feature.
It's not feasible to use an old iPhone forever, I tried. If the required app updates don't get you, the carrier will.
The big competitors like Samsung removed the jack too once they started selling their own wireless earbuds. They realized they could use Apple's strategy too.
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