Comment by A_D_E_P_T
2 years ago
> It’s much easier to bomb a family’s home.
Okay, how is this not a war crime?
There are ~2M civilians who live in Gaza, and many of them don't have access to food, water, medicine, or safe shelter. Some of those unfortunates live above, or below, Hamas operatives and their families.
"Oh, sorry, lol." "It was unintentional, lmao, seriously." "Our doctrine states that we can kill X civilians for every hostile operative, so don't worry about it."
The war in Gaza is unlike Ukraine -- where Ukrainian and Russian villagers can move away from the front, either towards Russia or westwards into Galicia -- and where nobody's flattening major population centers. In Gaza, anybody can evidently be killed at any time, for any reason or for no reason at all. The Israeli "strategy" makes the Ukrainians and Russians look like paragons of restraint and civility.
The war in Gaza is unlike Ukraine because Hamas does not issue uniforms or clearly demarcate military targets.
When the US was in Afghanistan, Al Qaeda learned that the US (generally) won't shoot ambulances. So what became the most valuable vehicle to Al Qaeda? Hamas took notes, but Israel doesn't seem to care as much as the US.
Also, besides all that, once something is used for military operations, it is fair game as a military target. Regardless of civilians. When the law was written it was assumed that governments wouldn't intentionally use their civilians as protection.
> "Hamas does not issue uniforms"
This is not true you can just google Qassam brigade to see their uniform, they have a very emblematic headband. They are hiding in tunnels though so you're not just gonna find them everywhere, Hamas does not have military equipment to be able to fight head to head with a modern military, it's just an insurgent group.
> once something is used for military operations, it is fair game as a military target.
Except you have to prove it was used for military operations, not just bomb hospitals. This is called a war crime.
> Regardless of civilians
well well
They do have uniforms, they just don't use them because it's way more effective to have Schrodinger super-position civilians who are soldiers when a gun is in their hand, and innocent civilians when they drop the gun.
Also, Hamas's leaders are worth over $10 billion collectively. They can at least afford basic uniforms and spray paint to mark their vehicles. But again, they won't do it, because civilian deaths are the last piece they have left for international support. Which comes in the form of aid, which they seize, and pad their $10 billion with.
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Well, plenty of allied soldiers in both Iraq and Afghanistan wars have been sentenced for war crimes, during the war on terrorism.
Take the Mahmudiyah case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_rape_and_killings
Lifetime imprisonments
The difference here is that when Israel does so - which is exceedingly rare - it is merely a slap on the wrist. Weeks to months in prison. Where's the deterrence in that?
Because it's Israel. It's also why no western country has ever really officially condemned Israel no matter what they do. They are on "our side" so it's okay. And those civilians kind of deserved it anyways or something, and we can just trust every single word the IDF says and use them as an actual source to pretend the IDF isn't into mass civilian murder.
The only thing that made this time a bit different is the crazy, almost hard to believe, switch from the Ukrainian conflict and how it was seen and portrayed... To western countries staying completely silent when again, it's our side doing it. Well it wasn't hard to believe but it just made it a lot more blatant.
Israel doesn't really care though since israeli officers routinely go on public tirades that amount to mask-off allusions to genocide ("wipe Gaza" "level the city to the ground" "make it unliveable"), with again 0 consequences at all. Even Russia at least tries to not have Russian military officers just say the quiet part out loud.
This is what I found the most shocking and disheartening in the first days after the October 7th massacre and the start of indiscriminate bombing of Gaza - the reaction and inaction of the West.
At the moment of the Russian invasion, so many countries banded together in supporting Ukraine, both in materiel and moral support. Russia became a pariah overnight. It was an awful situation but it was uplifting to see how we all cared about sovereignty, peace, self-determination and the well-being of civilians.
Then civilians in Gaza started getting slaughtered and... nothing, or worse - full support of it. The exact same freedom-loving world leaders had become mute.
I consider myself more cynical than the average person, but this still caught me off guard. Two horrible situations, two suffering peoples and such different outcomes.
As a father of a young child, it was a gut punch to see what we were suddenly trying to justify and it left me numb for days until I adjusted to the actual reality. The reaction to the Russian invasion had little to do with the welfare of Ukrainians; it was more about political affiliations.
The selectivity of Western calls to not commit war crimes predates the response to Oct 7. Two weeks earlier, the Azerbaijani dictatorship ethnically cleansed over 100,000 people from their ancestral land. Not a peep from anyone, in fact Azerbaijan is a "reliable, trustworthy partner" according to von der Leyen: https://neighbourhood-enlargement.ec.europa.eu/news/statemen...
https://www.compactmag.com/article/the-passion-of-artsakh/
There is absolutely no equivalence between Ukraine and Gaza, in fact, it is disguising to suggest as much.
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Even when our own citizens are killed, they don't get condemned.
E.g. the IDF targeted and killed a Canadian UN peacekeeper in 2008 (because he got too squeaky) and the Canadian gov't barely lodged a protest.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/un-officer-reported-is...
The sinking of the USS Liberty is the most notable of those events.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
> The combined air and sea attack killed 34 crew members (naval officers, seamen, two marines, and one civilian NSA employee), wounded 171 crew members
The only consequence for them was "paying compensations" as if there was a price to put on human lives.
The example you're citing was actually investigated, and (IIRC) it was found that Hezbollah was firing mortar(s) from a position directly adjacent to the UN post. I believe that it was generally assumed that Hezbollah was using the Canadians as 'human shields'. Culpability in such situations is usually attributed to the shield-users, largely due to the consequences of attributing blame to the retaliators (i.e. encouraging further use of human shields).
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The difference is russia is ethno absorptive and israel is ethno supremacist.
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> Okay, how is this not a war crime?
Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't.
Some questions worth asking: what is international law? How is international order maintained?
I agree that images and footage from Gaza are disturbing. But I encourage you to think systematically about what it is we are seeing.
I’ve thought about it systematically and it appears to be genocide