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Comment by Lex-2008

2 years ago

I'd buy such a device. Currently in holding on to my last pair of SSDs from pre-QLC era, refusing to buy anything new

There are still new SSDs that use TLC, such as the Silicon Power UD90 (I have one in my system). Not only that, some of them will run in SLC mode when writing new data and then move the data to TLC later - advertised as SLC Caching - which could be even better than always-TLC drives (even ones with a DRAM cache).

  • Your comment, along with other users, suggests that TLC is a positive attribute for consumers, however, the transition from SLC and MLC NAND to TLC and QLC 3D-NAND actually marked a decline in the longevity of SSDs.

    Using a mode other than SLC with current SSDs is insane due to the difference with planar NAND features, as the current 3D-NAND consumes writes for everything.

    3D-NAND, To read data consume writes [0],

        " Figure 1a plots the average SSD lifetime consumed by the read-only workloads across 200 days on three SSDs (the detailed parameters of these SSDs can be found from SSD-A/-B/-C in Table 1). As shown in the figure, the lifetime consumed by the read (disturbance) induced writes increases significantly as the SSD density increases. In addition, increasing the read throughput (from 17MBps to 56/68MBps) can greatly accelerate the lifetime consumption. Even more problematically, as the density increases, the SSD lifetime (plotted in Figure 1b) decreases. In addition, SSD-aware write-reduction-oriented system software is no longer sufficient for high-density 3D SSDs, to reduce lifetime consumption. This is because the SSDs entered an era where one can wear out an SSD by simply reading it."
    

    3D-NAND, Data retention consume writes [1],

        " 3D NAND flash memory exhibits three new error sources that were not previously observed in planar NAND flash memory:
    
        (1) layer-to-layer process variation, 
        a new phenomenon specific to the 3D nature of the device, where the average error rate of each 3D-stacked layer in a chip is significantly different;
    
        (2) early retention loss, 
        a new phenomenon where the number of errors due to charge leakage increases quickly within several hours after programming; and
    
        (3) retention interference, 
        a new phenomenon where the rate at which charge leaks from a flash cell is dependent on the data value stored in the neighboring cell. "
    
    

    [0] https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3445814.3446733

    [1] https://ghose.cs.illinois.edu/papers/18sigmetrics_3dflash.pd...

    • Even datacenter-grade drives scarcely use SLC or MLC anymore since TLC has matured to the point of being more than good enough even in most server workloads, what possible need would 99% of consumers have for SLC/MLC nowadays?

      If you really want a modern SLC drive there's the Kioxia FL6, which has a whopping 350,400 TB of write endurance in the 3TB variant, but it'll cost you $4320. Alternatively you can get 4TB of TLC for $300 and take your chances with "only" 2400 TB endurance.

      4 replies →

    • I agree wholeheartedly. It’s not something a large enterprise can do, but for my own home and multiple small business needs I purchased a good number of Samsung 960/970 Pro NVMe drives when they came out with the TLC 980 Pro.

      I’m still rocking some older Optanes and scavenge them from retired builds. They’ll last longer than a new 990 Pro.

    • > Your comment, along with other users, suggests that TLC is a positive attribute for consumers, however, the transition from SLC and MLC NAND to TLC and QLC 3D-NAND actually marked a decline in the longevity of SSDs.

      The bit that you're pointedly ignoring and that none of your quotes address is the fact that SLC SSDs had far more longevity than anyone really needed. Sacrificing longevity to get higher capacity for the same price was the right tradeoff for consumers and almost all server use cases.

      The fact that 3D NAND has some new mechanisms for data to be corrupted is pointless trivia on its own, bordering on fearmongering the way you're presenting it. The real impact these issues have on overall drive lifetime, compared to realistic estimates of how much lifespan people actually need from their drives, is not at all alarming.

      Not using SLC is not insane. Insisting on using SLC everywhere is what's insane.

    • > Your comment, along with other users, suggests that TLC is a positive attribute for consumers

      TLC is better than QLC, which is specifically what my comment was addressing; I never implied that it's better than SLC though, so just don't, please.

      It's interesting to see that 3D-NAND has other issues even when run in SLC mode, though.

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Samsung 870EVO (SSD), 980 Pro/990 Pro (NVMe) are all TLC drives. Kingston KC3000 is faster than 980 Pro, hence it's probably TLC, too.

  • A decent rule of thumb if that if a drive uses TLC, it will probably say so in the spec sheet.

    If it's left ambiguous then it's either QLC, or a lottery where the "same" model may be TLC or QLC.

    • Kingston NV2 is in that "what you get may differ" category, and Kingston explicitly says that what you get may change. I have two NV2s with differing die count, for example. Their controller might be different too. They're external, short-use drives, so I don't care.

      So, returning to previously mentioned ones, from their respective datasheets:

          - 870 EVO: Samsung V-NAND 3bit MLC
          - 980 Pro: Samsung V-NAND 3bit MLC
          - 990 Pro: Samsung V-NAND TLC
          - KC3000: NAND: 3D TLC
          - NV2: NAND: 3D // Explicit Lottery.

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  • I bought up a lot of 960 and 970 Pro models when the 980 came out and it was TLC, to have MLC drives for logs and caches. Little did I know that TLC was just the beginning of the decline and QLC was right around the corner for even enterprise!

The point I was making is that there is no profit to be made by extending the life of drives. And sample size of one (i.e. you) is not representative of the market. There is always a demand for storage and people will keep buying worse products because there is no other choice.

  • I don't understand this logic. Consider the two possibilities here.

    The first is that only weird tech people are interested in doing this. Then they might as well allow it because it's a negligible proportion of the market but it makes those customers favor rather than dislike your brand, and makes them more likely to recommend your devices to others, which makes you some money.

    The second is that it would be widely popular and large numbers of customers would want to do it, and thereby choose the drives that allow it. Then if Samsung does it and SanDisk doesn't, or vice versa, they take more of the other's customers. Allowing it is the thing makes them more money.

    Meanwhile the thing that trashes most SSDs isn't wear, it's obsolescence. There are millions of ten year old QLC SSDs that are perfectly operational because they lived in a desktop and saw five drive writes over their entire existence. They're worthless not because they don't work, but because a drive which is newer and bigger and faster is $20. It costs the manufacturer nothing to let them be more reliable because they're going in the bin one way or the other.

    The status quo seems like MBAs cargo culting some heuristic where a company makes money in proportion to how evil they are. Companies actually make money in proportion to how much money they can get customers to spend with them. Which often has something to do with how much customers like them.