Comment by mdp2021
2 years ago
> Except that's not how we value the "worth" of something
In that case, are you sure your evaluation is proper? If a masterpiece is there, and it /is/ a masterpiece (beyond appearances), why would its source change its nature and quality?
> Come to think of it, hasn't that process already begun?
Please present relevant examples: I have already observed in the past that simulations of the art made by X cannot just look similar but require the process, the justification, the meanings that had X producing them. The style of X is not just thickness of lines, temperature of colours and flatness of shades: it is in the meanings that X wanted to express and convey.
> WTF is up with the weird capitalisations?
Platonic terms - the Ideas in the Hyperuranium. E.g. "This action is good, but what is Good?".
> E.g. "This action is good, but what is Good?".
Faking thinking isn't “Thinking”. Art is supposed to have some thought behind it; therefore, “art” created by faking thinking isn't “Art”. Should be utterly fucking obvious.
> Platonic terms - the Ideas in the Hyperuranium.
Oh my god, couldn't you please try to come off as a bit more pretentious? You're only tying yourself into knots with that bullshit; see your failure to recognise the simple truth above. Remember: KISS!
No, CRConrad, no. You misunderstood what was said.
Having put those capital initials in the words was exactly to mean "if we get to the Real Thing". You are stating that in order to get Art, Thinking and Judgement we need Proper processes: and nobody said differently! I wrote that «if algorithms strict or loose could one day produce Art, and Thought, and Judgement, of Superior quality [this will be] very welcome». There is nothing in there that implies that "fake thinking" will produce A-T-J (picked at writing as the most important possible results I could see); there is an implicit statement that Proper processes (i.e. "real thinking") could be artificially obtained, when we will find out how.
Of course the implementation of a mockery of "thought" will not lead to any Real A-T-J (the capitals were for "Real"); but if we will manage to implement it, then we will obtain Art, and Thought, and Judgement - and this will be a collective gain, because we need more and more of them. Irregardless if the source has more carbon or more silicon in it.
«Faking thinking» is not "implementing thinking". From a good implementation of thinking you get the Real Thing - by definition. That we are not there yet does not mean it will not come.
(Just a note: with "Thought" in the "A-T-J" I meant "good insight". Of course good thinking is required to obtain that and the rest - say, "proper processes", as it is indifferent whether it spawns from an algorithmic form or a natural one.)
> KISS
May I remind you of Einstein's "As simple as possible, but not oversimplified".
> only
Intellectual instruments can be of course quite valid and productive if used well - the whole of a developed mind comes from their use and refinement. You asked about the capitals, I told you what they are (when you see them in the wild).
> see your failure to recognise
Actually, that was a strawman on your side out of misunderstanding...
> You are stating that in order to get Art, Thinking and Judgement we need Proper processes
Well yeah, but no -- I was mostly parodying your style; what I actually meant could be put as: in order to get art, thinking and judgement we need proper processes.
(And Plato has not only been dead for what, two and a half millennia?, but before that, he was an asshole. So screw him and all his torch-lit caves.)
> «Faking thinking» is not "implementing thinking".
Exactly. And all the LLM token-regurgitatinmg BS we've seen so far, and which everyone is talking about here, is just faking it.
> May I remind you of Einstein's "As simple as possible, but not oversimplified".
Yup, heard it before. (Almost exactly like that; I think it's usually rendered as "...but not more" at the end.) And what you get out of artificial "intelligence" is either oversimplified or, if it's supposed to be "art", usually just plain kitsch.
> > see your failure to recognise
> Actually, that was a strawman on your side out of misunderstanding...
Nope, the imaginary "strawman" you see is a figment of your still over-complicating imagination.
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