Comment by meowface
1 year ago
This is why I like the United States. The first rule is freedom of speech. I hate Trump and I hate the right, I think Trump should be jailed for at least a decade for his attempts to destroy American democracy (fake elector scheme, inaction on Jan 6, pressuring of legislators during Jan 6), but I'd be out there protesting with everyone else if Trump could be jailed simply for spreading falsehoods in general.
I think freedom of speech is kind of a bullshit concept at a philosophical level - I've become very blackpilled in that department - but at a legalistic level it's beyond the pale to me that someone could be imprisoned just for words barring very special circumstances.
The government should not be throwing people in prison for allegedly "spreading lies for personal or political gain" unless it already clearly falls under an existing crime (like fraud - getting someone to give you money under explicit false pretenses) or tort (like defamation - knowingly telling damaging falsehoods about someone else to harm them). Incitement to likely, imminent lawless action is also already covered.
The US is a very odd choice to pick for free speech rights. It has had a terrible track record regarding free speech, especially throughout most of the 20th century.
Try advocating for communism from the 20s-80s or for the rights of black people in the 50s/60s/into-70s.
Or say the wrong criticism in the early 2000s after 9/11. At best you get surveillance, at worst you’re dealing with FISA.
We have not had any changes to the constitution to further protect speech, either.
None of those things landed people in jail. The US, from a law standpoint, has had the strongest free speech protections of almost any country in history.
The US has certainly had its problems, like widespread racism and the red scare, sure, but this is all relative to how other countries respond to speech with legal action.
Every single one of those things landed people in jail. Many people also got sent to prison under the Espionage Act just for publicly opposing conscription during the wars of the 20th century.
1 reply →
> None of those things landed people in jail.
Literally all of those things did.
- Equal rights activism https://calendar.eji.org/racial-injustice/feb/1
- Communism activism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_Act_trials_of_Communist_...
And don't even get me started on Snowden and Assange exposing the tremendous (war + civilian) crimes of the US government and being silenced and persecuted for it.
> The US, from a law standpoint, has had the strongest free speech protections of almost any country in history.
Absolutely false. It's not even in top 10.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries...
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> The government should not be throwing people in prison for allegedly "spreading lies for personal or political gain"
Many people don't know that the Soviet constitution guaranteed freedom of speech[1] (Article 125[1]), provided it was "in conformity with the interests of the working people, and in order to strengthen the socialist system"
Same goes for other socialist governments: the People's Republic of China (Article 35[2]), the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (Article 67[3]), the German Democratic Republic (aka East Germany, Article 9[4]), and so on.
Of course, the reality was and is lengthy imprisonment for "free speech" against the government or ruling class.
"Free speech, except for [exceptions that are nearly infinite in scope]" is a key feature of socialist governments, as is justifying the imprisonment of dissidents and undesirables as "fighting anti-democratic forces" and "preventing the spread of misinformation".
Moreover, socialist governments are very clear that they are democracies; it's often in the name (Democratic People's Republic of Korea), and also frequently appears in speeches, official documents, etc.
Their commitment to "democracy" isn't just words-on-paper, either! Voting is usually either mandatory or "strongly encouraged", although you can only vote for a Party-approved candidate, and the outcome of elections is basically pre-determined.
[1] https://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/36cons04....
[2] http://www.npc.gov.cn/zgrdw/englishnpc/Constitution/2007-11/...
[3] https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Peoples_Repub...
[4] https://www.cvce.eu/content/publication/1999/1/1/33cc8de2-3c...