Comment by numbers_guy
11 hours ago
We keep going in circles on this. Give them cash and suddenly you have lots of people cheating the system to get the cash, like all the beggar gangs that hangout outside supermarkets. Do means testing and you build a whole wasteful bureaucracy that costs 2x as the actual cash given to the people in need.
IMHO, just setup a public day labour program. One day of honest work for one day's worth of wages. Show up in the morning, don a uniform and do your assigned task, no questions asked.
What do you think about the program discussed in the article:
> support workers will discuss their financial problems then pay for items such as rent deposits, outstanding debts, work equipment, white goods, furniture or new clothes. They do not make direct transfers
Utah had a similar program once. Focused on housing first, but with support in other areas as well. It was largely successful, but complex and expensive. So they’ve since moved funding around and lost ground…
https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2020/05/11/utah-was-onc...
Most fraud comes from the top, not the bottom. What if there's no work to be done? What about those that can't do physical work? Should the sick ones still have to work just to eat today?
It wouldn't cost that much to give a small roof and food to every homeless person in my country, and becoming a productive member of society is vastly easier when you don't have to worry about your next meal.
But no, "some might cheat the system", or "it's not fair to give money to lazy bums", etc.
We could basically eradicate homelessness at small economic cost, which I believe would be a net positive on the long term, but we don't because of an irrational fear of the poorest members of society cheating the system.
I am not trying to demonize any demographic. Everyone tries to cheat the system especially when you have a system that is easy to game. Yes, the most severe corruption is at the very top. Doesn't mean we should ignore other problems.
When you create perverse incentives you attract systematic cheaters. We literally conducted this experiment in Germany. Now the government is trying to roll out a restricted benefits card instead of giving out cash, because people come from overseas just to get on the benefits system and send the cash back home.
> Everyone tries to cheat the system
No.
A lot of people say things like this, probably because they would (or do) cheat the system and they want to justify this as 'normal'.
However, studies show most people abide by rules, especially when systems are transparent and fair.
> When you create perverse incentives
Ending homelessness and poverty isn't perverse. It's necessary for a decent society.
And, it can be done. Finland ended homelessness rapidly, with a little political will and intelligence.
> When you create perverse incentives you attract systematic cheaters. We literally conducted this experiment in Germany. Now the government is trying to roll out a restricted benefits card instead of giving out cash, because people come from overseas just to get on the benefits system and send the cash back home.
Is this anything more than a right-wing talking point? There is no proof that this is actually happening in any meaningful scale.
The wealthiest use issues like this to cheat the system. Solutions would involve WORK, plenty are still able, also temporarily assigning empty spaces in office buildings or other such reintegrative convergence points whereby reassuming ALL the lost habits and behaviors expected of productive members of society can find a place to be redonned much like release from prison. Reintegration is what needs to occur when the civilised suit is required to be worn again and the animal skin donned merely for survival can be retired. When conditions on the outside of a person are met it is within the grasp of that person to meet them internally as well. I will act civilised when im given the same respect afforded to people for whom the idea its ok to not have a home WOULD BE RIDICULOUS. In falling beneath all this contempt i wore the dirt i was considered sononymous with PROUDLY. If no one could thereafter imagine me clean, i too forgot the image. Thus i became my disgusting environment. Seeing as how in a moments flash of judgement i was seen less than human, how could i ever hope to regain a position so imaginary to begin with when i watched it die like a light in a strange mans eye. Because immediately he could ascertain i held less possessions, owned less property, wore dirtier clothing, slept god knew where. For those reasons i was immediately upon sight cast down into a place i was NOT EXPECTED TO RETURN FROM EVER.By everyone who looked at me. And i stayed exactly where i was expected to down there in the dirt. Because i no longer held any more faith in THAT MAN and his fragile petty conclusions than he held of me. His suit was too pretty for me to desire its false presumptive lies.. and my dirt was to ugly and real for him to understand how i could be a man when soap is so readily available. What had i done so terribly wrong that i couldnt at least MIMIC the simple act of civilised proper upbringing? My response? I no longer freakin want to. The eventual chain of personal deevolution was thereafter embraced where i saw a certain enlightenment in the adoption of more profound truths than being merely poor. At some point with the dropping of crumbs of concern for what people thought of me i unwittingly entered into a state of raw hostile savagery decorated with the accoutrements and badges of REAL SURVIVAL. Only others like me understood me and i passed a place from which without outside intervention i couldnt possibly hope to return. And this isnt my story alone. It is what you see written on thousands of faces when you look into the incomprehensible visage and life of the homeless person. Staring back at you is the return of incomprehensive shock at what theyve become from what looking at you they once were. And...the dread hopeless certainty theres no return. What do you think it does to the soul who sees the ship sailing away without him never to return, in a land that is not home and from which theres no escape? Inside, he dies. So there is youre burdon the desire you swear you wish to understand and heal. How to bring all these dead folks back to life?
Lmao...i wish. Dont u realize this kind of solution would go a long ways towards solving the problem? Good luck with real solutions. Its more profitable to pretend. But thank you for still believing in us. Most stopped long ago.
Seriously. This thread is a bunch of people who have never been homeless, who never bothered once to learn anything about the mechanics of homelessness, yet feel compelled to share their utterly wrong opinions anyway. It's still a sin to tell a lie.
How is this not open to corruption and worse too. Folks doing "favors" to supervisors who then get marked as doing a day's work. Or some other favorites getting preferred work over others.
It's not that simple, and it's why a free market would probably work better over the long run than some proto-communist jobs for everyone scenario.
The free market is also full of corruption. It's called wage theft. It's very prevalent and especially in such situations where the workers are so vulnerable.
And please refrain from using catch-all phrases like "free market" and "communist". That's the mark of a very stupid person.
Ad hominem retorts are more the mark of stupidity, but I'd suspect you wouldn't know about that one way or the other.
A base inability to argue facts also would likewise betray some lesser faculty or learning.
People need education and job opportunities that fit their level of education/intelect and pay a living wage, not handouts that don't even cover the cost of living. Believe it or not most people would rather work a meaningful job and be part of a productive community rather than bum around on welfare doing nothing.
But when most low-skill/unskilled jobs have been sent off to Asia, a lot of people have been left out of the economy and the community if they didn't upskill themselves into well paying jobs early on in life. "Just learn to code bro" /s
It's a self inflicted problem the post-industrial west has created for the sake of privatizing corporate profits while socializing the losses to society leaving it for the state to fix, which they haven't.
Let's not confuse demographics. There is a struggling working class who are employed but barely getting by. Then there are people who for various reasons have completely given up on life and actively avoid work, probably getting by on some subsistence from government security programs like disability and the dole.
>Then there are people who for various reasons have completely given up on life and actively avoid work
Gee, I wonder why that is?
Is it because the work they're avoiding is dead-end jobs that destroy your body and sanity while barely paying above unemployment?
Wouldn't you also do anything to avoid such jobs if you could? You probably went to college to avoid these jobs. Others didn't so are taking other measures.
Sure, someone still has to do those unskilled jobs, the problem is our western society has become way too expensive to live on the pay of such jobs unlike in the past. Rent alone has massively outpaced wage growth let alone minimum wage.
Oh, and even when you have income finding a place to live can be difficult when for example in Germany landlords ask you to provide a stack of paperwork to prove you're a model tennant, and if something looks remotely fishy, you're out of the race because he has 50 more applicants for the apartment who seem wealthier or more stable.
So when people realize they're condemned to a life of neo feudalism with no chance to move up, why should anyone bother to take the shit jobs anymore to support the economy or the society that screwed them? The western leaders needs to address this issue sooner than later instead of keep hitting the "remind me later" button.
> … actively avoid work …
Is your job to be a moral judge?
As long as there are people who want work and don't get any, I really don't care whether there are a (hypothetical) few who actually don't want to work. Besides, we're productive enough by now to not require everyone be gainfully employed to justify their existence.
My last town tried a day labor center. Just a spot at a town maintenance yard where day labor could wait to get picked up for work. It worked well. But got shut down by NIMBYs and conservatives who saw mostly brown faces.
It wasn’t just to help homeless. But any similar program is going to run headlong into the same criminalization of poverty issues we always see in the US.