I don’t understand the lack of interest by journalists. What more did Williams need to do the first time he reached out to garner interest? Does ProPublica overestimate the seriousness of the militia movement? I’d think based on J6 the journalists ignoring Williams’ communications should have paid attention.
Besides the things other comments mentioned: There is a longstanding sentiment that "It can't happen here".
The wider public in America more or less blocks out the risks involved. "They're not actually going to blow up the power grid."
Hell, just look at the tech industry. Endless whining about not needing to be regulated, and what have they done? Built an enormous surveilance machine, lead by executives who preemptively kowtow to any authoritarian leader. Europe's attempt to regulate this is still angrily opposed by heaps, even on this very site.
Normalcy bias — it's an absolute killer. The same cognitive failure that has people in a fire thinking it's "just part of the show", or "just something in the kitchen", until it is too late, and panic overtakes everyone. I've never seen a story of a fire where someone in the situation said "I wasn't sure what was going on, but it didn't seem good so I left early, I'm alive because I did!".
Normalcy bias can kill us all if we aren't careful.
Thanks for writing this: things are quite askew right now for various reasons, and it was unexpectedly affirming to hear someone say it loud.
Until now I would have said this is an extreme minority view, even though it's quite obvious and aligns with the core values I've seen on this site over the last 15 years, and thus presumed were tech in general's view.
Maybe I just need to get off X, the Everything App™, 90% of my news consumption and commentary is through there.
It’s sort of alluded to but I suspect journalists get a whole lot of false tips from various mentally unhealthy folk, which perhaps appear much like Williams’ in this story.
Yeah, being contacted by someone who’s on a bespoke undercover mission in right-wing militias is huge. Being contacted by someone who’s says they are is another matter.
Because it's just not interesting. He didn't find out anything exciting and basically nothing crazy happened. Its incredibly easy to join these organizations. Just show up. They aren't doing much of anything.
There's no shortage of street gangs, kill rappers, cartels,ethnic crime families, ransomware groups, terrorist etc that are actively killing people or committing wide scale crimes. Go join them and you could have a compelling story. Join the Nuwabian Moors and get to work on infiltrating the SuperMax.
Even corny ass biker gangs with their name on their "cut" occasionally get in shoot outs and have more interesting things going on then what is basically a middle aged version of the boy scouts.
I dont think journalists really find J6 to be important at all. Even left leaning journalists pay lip service to it but shrugs, buncha white dudes blowing off steam I think is how "everyone" sees this. As evidence, look at the election we just had.
It reminds me of how the World Trade Center was bombed in 1993. Oh, that was scary, well, whatever, the dudes in jail, shrugs. Because it failed to bring the building down. For me, I was like, holy crap people are trying to blow up the WTC arent they going to....keep trying? but that's just not how people think. Super scary thing that failed == ho hum.
The amazing thing is how the right was able to essentially rewrite the history of Jan 6 over the last 4 years. Right after the incident even many Republican politicians in DC were calling for Trump's resignation and impeachment (or at least some resolution that would not allow him to run again). There was a huge amount of alarm in the immediate aftermath. But then the narrative about the events of that day slowly started to turn into "it was just a peaceful protest where a few bad apples got a bit out of hand" (that came right after the "it was antifa" stage which didn't last too long when it was clear that these folks were Trump supporters). Trump certainly minimized Jan 6 (to his benefit) and the rest of the GOP began to go along just as they've gone along with the idea that the 2020 election was "stolen" from Trump (and if they actually believe it was stolen then they can come to the conclusion that Jan 6 was justified as some of them do).
Or, pertinent to the subject at hand, how the Oklahoma City bombing was tied to the right wing militia movement and they’re still mostly seen as, well, a bunch of white dudes blowing off steam like you said. In that case, it seems like people saw that they got the perpetrators and that’s that, not considering what sort of circumstances produced them and where it might go in the future.
And WTC and OKC were (at least somewhat) successful attacks! J6 caused damage but failed. We’re really bad at taking failed attempts seriously.
He just up and joined a bunch of radical militias that he strongly disagrees with? I mean... maybe. But you'd of course be very suspicious of everything he says and his motives for coming forward.
The article's author was suspicious and skeptical too. That's why he read through the chat logs and audio recordings, and also interviewed former friends and militia members to corroborate the story. The article also explicitly calls out which of Williams' claims were uncorroborated or contradicted.
Genuinely asking: what other evidence are you looking for?
I think he actually agreed with it. Then had a change of heart or they pissed him off. I would go with the latter.
Myself.
Plus really have to be careful doing solo stuff like this. Alot of actual bad guys would say.
See I was telling a journalist etc. I am super under cover!
He might have been reaching out to journalists working for outlets that run cover for this militia movement. Based on J6 and subsequent developments in the justice system, there are media outlets cooperating with those authorities that downplay/join the militia movement.
This is an important side-light on the concept that media sources are 'grifting' and only interested in what will make them money. It's surprisingly common for media sources to turn away from stories that could be sensational and give them money, but at the expense of a cause (such as these paramilitaries) which someone at the media source supports.
In that case, the person at the media source making decisions will understand that the story is sensational and attention-getting, but will quash it because to run the story would be hurting the paramilitaries…
> Does ProPublica overestimate the seriousness of the militia movement?
Unclear. Depends on how supportive of it Trump is. He might legitimize it by pardoning the Jan. 6 attackers. Many of them thought they were acting on Trump's orders, after all. There was one platoon-sized Proud Boys unit on Jan. 6th that showed military organization and discipline. The rest were just a mob.
Having a private army of goons can be useful. That's what the SA was in the Nazi era. The SA was a big organization, 20x the size of the German army at peak. Eventually, it was put down once Hitler was firmly in power. See "Night of the Long Knives".[1] Other countries have been through this. Sometimes the goons ended up in charge, or at least as a large faction to be kept happy.
This is often seen after internal unrest that yields a large, restless, armed group. Germany got there by losing WWI, but not being crushed. Haiti is a classic example. Afghanistan seems to have gone down this road - all those former "fighters" have to be fed and kept busy.
The closest the US came was the "Bonus Army" camped out on the Mall after WWI, demanding a bonus for veterans.[2] The Bonus Army had 17,000 veteran soldiers, and some political and police support. Eventually they were forcibly dispersed.
US militias don't match any of those classic situations. They're mostly wannabees. If you encounter militia types, ask them if all their members use the same ammo. If not, they're a rabble, not an army.
Do we get to see the actual documents the original author talks about?
> US militias don't match any of those classic situations. They're mostly wannabees. If you encounter militia types, ask them if all their members use the same ammo. If not, they're a rabble, not an army.
Sure, but there's plenty of opportunity for asymmetric warfare. Several power stations have been attacked in various parts of the US over the last few years. They could be probing the power system for vulnerabilities (and there are plenty of those). Also, look at how lowish-cost drones are coming to dominate the Ukraine war.
The job of corporate media is to preserve the establishment, to perpetuate the status quo.
Sometimes, some token investigative journalism is allowed. (So long as those revelations do not challenge the status quo, natch.) Maintaining the charade of being the Forth Estate. Less so over time, as the "infotainment" biz model pioneered by USA Today transformed the industry. What kids today would call "enshitification."
FWIW, Propublica is a member of the so-called Fifth Estate, explaining why they can do what actual journalism.
If he does follow up with releasing incriminating files then that's not nothing. We'll see. I have hopes that he wasn't lying, I like nothing more than seeing traitors and treasonous cowards exposed to the light. I try to always stay centered and skeptical, but it would be a great reveal to expose these militia cowards skulking around the country.
Because as low as most journalist’s standard are, Williams is below that low standard. Though good enough for Pro Publica. He is an erratic, ex-con, who seems to be mentally unstable. Did you believe the puppy story?
If the journalist really verified the audio recordings I believe it. Faking so many hours of audio from multiple people is still difficult. I mean, you could do it with AI voices, but I doubt that's the case
Pro Publica is probably the most outstanding investigative journalist collective in the USA currently, unafraid to step on MAGA and militia toes despite their constant threats against journalistic freedom.
I get a sense that we are beginning to see a resurgence in lone-wolf style operator activism and crime (or terrorism, etc., depending on your view of things), sort of like was more common 30+ years ago, a la the Unibomber, Skyjacker, all of the serial killers in the 60-80s.
The reasons of “why now” and “why lone wolf” are complicated but mostly boil down to high availability of information (awareness of opsec) and relatively low trust amongst social groups and of institutions, coupled with a more online and more destabilized male demographic the younger you go.
Luigi was the first educated one we've seen in a while, not sure if its a trend yet. the rest are young with not much going for them, or homeless and have mental problems
The more the behemoth of bureaucracy and total control will grind and (o)press the societies to atomized individuals, the more lone wolfs will crop up.
> the outrage machine results in mass self-radicalization
I would think that radicalization is more likely caused by the center being more and more obviously fascist or corporatist or anti-people or whatever term you prefer.
> Sowing that distrust is why Williams is going on the record, albeit without his original name
I don’t understand this. There’s an insane level of detail here that if true immediately reveals his identity to those involved. How does withholding his name change anything?
> On March 20… He’d helped persuade Seddon and his lieutenants to fire the head of AP3’s Utah chapter and to install Williams in his place.
I wonder if he also infiltrated under a fake name (possibly the same fake name).
I think the “albeit” is just an aside. It isn’t necessarily enhancing his ability to create distrust. It is slightly confusing though because one could of course imagine a way of writing the report anonymously that would add additional distrust; if he was vague enough it could be hard for anybody to know that he wasn’t talking about their organization. But he’d have to be pretty vague.
I am guessing that his threat model includes people involved in these militias (or others) but who he didn't interact with directly. It probably also includes action by people merely sympathetic to them, for example maybe local law enforcement.
There can be a difference between revealing identity to some and revealing it to all. I'm not sure how much difference there is in this case specifically but it's not my life, not my call.
Those details are not necessarily his firsthand account of things. I mean, in your own comment you quote something where Williams is posing as something else in order to take someone else down, why should it be any different in the case of providing these details?
Because the journalist is claiming to have validated the elements of the story. If the journalist is also lying about that or intentionally helping their source in lying that’s a huge breach of public trust and should be immediately blacklisted from working as such in the future. There are other ways the source could be protected without actually lying about things they’re claiming are true.
This post makes me wonder why videos of militias training always look so farcical.
Practically, why are there not militia groups with Navy SEAL/Delta-level tactical abilities? Or at least near to that? Is it personnel selection effects or bc that level of training requires time/money investments that are out of the reach of non-professional organizations?
Possibly those with real abilities have the discipline to not publicise it in videos.
Also, in experience with self-organized volunteer organizations in different fields (not militias, etc.), the lack of discipline, organization, motivation, just basic thought is often shocking. The dysfunction can be overwhelming. I'm not surprised that very few have developed real capabilities.
> Navy SEAL/Delta-level
Maybe you didn't mean it literally, but that is a pretty high standard. It's like asking why you don't see local basketball players with NBA-level ability. 99.x% of military personnel, with years of training and experience, don't reach those levels.
You bring up some interesting points. The publicizing side of things makes sense. Although given how often you hear about ex-military, police, etc, members in groups like these, I'd still expect that we'd see a handful of criminal/terrorist activities taken out by highly competent groups, even if it's unclear who it is.
But that may get back to your point about discipline, motivation, intelligence, etc.
Re SEAL/Delta-level: I guess I'm asking two distinct questions.
1) To use your basketball analogy: while NBA-level skills may be an unreasonable expectation, why do the videos seem to show middle school or JV-level competence? I'd expect that D3 college-level competence wouldn't be super difficult, but evidently that isn't a correct assumption.
2) What is the practical requirement for a world-class tactical unit (or near that level, e.g. D1 basketball or a bad pro team)? I wouldn't expect current militias to be at that level, but what about less developed nation-states?
My two bit understanding is that militias are mostly LARPing (in a very open sense)? And it’s not like they have a giant candidate pool
Probably important to consider that everything you know about SEALs etc are filtered through a massive PR system anyways. So you might not be comparing the same level of quality of video either. Good editing can do wonders.
> everything you know about SEALs etc are filtered through a massive PR system anyways.
I saw a joke about Navy Seals awhile ago that went something like:
A Navy Seal and a Delta Force operator are chatting in a bar. The Navy Seal immediately starts talking and bragging for hours about all the amazing things he and other Seals have done. The entire time the Delta Force operator smiles and nods.
I think the militias don't get the top-of-the-line retired military people. They get the wannabes, the people who love the trappings of being tough and deadly, without the actual skills or training. Putting on my amateur psychologist's hat, I'd guess that the militia types mostly washed out in the military, but are still looking for what they went into the military to try to find - a sense of belonging and identity.
The real SEAL/Delta level people don't go into a militia to try to find that - they found it for real in the real military.
This is a good point, and the emphasis on belonging aligns with the article.
A trope of many action/thriller movies is groups of top-notch professionals becoming disenchanted with democracy and forming terrorist organizations. While movies aren't reality, it's striking that even watered-down versions almost never seem to happen. Maybe the military is just that good at filtering out those types during psychological testing, or maybe belonging is far more important than ideology.
What you write sounds plausible at first, but then there’s this example from the German KSK:
„In 2018, the German Federal Criminal Police Office uncovered a plot involving unknown KSK soldiers to murder prominent German politicians such as Claudia Roth, Heiko Maas and Joachim Gauck among others, and carry out attacks against immigrants living in Germany.[7] Also, earlier that same year in a separate investigation, the State prosecutors in the city of Tübingen investigated whether neo-Nazi symbols were used at a "farewell" event involving members of KSK.[8][9]
In June 2020, German defence minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer announced that the unit would be partially disbanded due to growing far-right extremism within the ranks.[10] The KSK had become partially independent from the chain of command, with a toxic leadership culture. One of the force's four companies where extremism is said to be the most rife was to be dissolved and not replaced.[11]“
> why are there not militia groups with Navy SEAL/Delta-level tactical abilities?
Let's set aside talent, access to experience trainers, facilities and equipment and just look at time on task: real special forces operators spend 30-60 hours per week, 48 weeks a year (assuming 4 weeks of leave) working on their craft. Finding people that can put that kind of time in would be rare.
When you look at the other factors, the gap widens.
So if the militia doesn't hold a candle to the SEALs the why do they matter? Because of modern point and shoot repeating and guided weapons. We're seeing that in how the Russians are taking people off the streets and out of prisons, giving 1-3 week of training and throwing them at the Ukrainians. We saw that with the Ukrainians when they stopped huge Russian armored columns with man-portable anti-tank missiles. Bullets, grenades, ATGMs and drones really don't care about the experience level of their target. Artillery, even portable stuff like a pack mortar or repeating grenade launcher takes out any Spetznaz or Rangers in the general area you aim at just like it does any other soldier. The age of the super-proficient ended with the US Civil war: the revolver, repeating rifle and machine gun level skill gaps pretty quickly..
A large part of the FBI's job is to shut these militias down. You can't grow a resistance movement without making some noise, and the US government is obviously very keen on maintaining the status quo.
Examples from the past are easy to come by (COINTELPRO), but a recent example would be the failed 2020 kidnapping plot of Gretchen Whitmer, the Governor of Michigan at the time.
Thirteen arrests were announced, and the FBI has admitted to using three informants and two special agents. The defense argued that there were at least twelve.
Using the official number as a conservative guess, that's still 5 feds for 13 arrests (a 38% ratio!)
Now imagine if instead of 13 dudes trying to kidnap a governor, it was a local militia trying to arm and train hundreds or thousands of people. The full power of the US government to crush opposition is terrifying.
Exactly. And defense against tyranny is a legitimate thing. Militia's are not really special. It's unclear what it even means given many things are legal in the US.
In addition to the prohibitive cost and effort to setup and maintain such a program, I believe all 50 states have laws on the books that make it illegal to organize and train in military tactics without prior authorization from the state.[1]
The law doesn't say that at all. They're not allowed to perform law enforcement _functions_. There's nothing that prevents them from /training/ to do so.
A “paramilitary organization” is
“an organization of two or more persons who engage or conspire to engage in
military instruction or training in
warfare or sabotage for the purpose of unlawfully causing physical injury to
any
person or unlawfully damaging the
property of any person.” N.Y. Mil. Law § 240(6)(b)(i).
Perhaps, but do you think these groups would NOT train just because of some state law?
It feels like the "no scammers" thing you see on Craigslist ads; as if some scammer would say, "Darn, and I was really hoping to cash in on THIS one; I guess I'm out."
And when you’re done being a SEAL, you use your skills in organization, focus, and motivation to succeed in business and having a normal life. Not cosplaying your old job with a bunch of dudes that suck.
> This post makes me wonder why videos of militias training always look so farcical.
This exactly - a few 300-pound dudes taking a break from their McDonalds to look like they really mean it by firing long barrelled weapons at some cardboard target. All this escape and evasion training, with all the wilderness stuff too - it's nonsense, little guys playing soldier is all.
this is that guy bringing his tactical knife to the forest and putting wax in a can to light a fire for a "bushcraft/survivalist" YouTube video, but in group
My family had to evacuate a few times due to fires. One of them, the National Guard was outside my neighborhood helping to coordinate the chaos. I'll never forget seeing Humvees right outside my neighborhood while the sky was blood red and full of smoke. It was like a disaster scene out of a movie, except real life. Not fun as a kid...
We barely were able to find a hotel to go to.
Afterwards, my dad kept 4-6 duffel bags full of water, first aid, clothes, MREs/dry meals, and other gear so if we ever need to get out of the place, we'd be ready.
So yes, it's a good idea to have some supplies ready because you never know.
You might if you were already in the habit of taking them. Or if you were more worried about the quality of your future food than having any. They don't take much space or weight, so it's not that hard to include them.
I remember re-watching “three days of the condor” recently - and apart from a few “wow the 70s was a different time” moments the biggest takeaway was the hero just hands a dossier to the Washington Post, no drops off a dossier to the post room!, and the film, the audience, everyone just assumes the job is done - the bad guys are exposed and they will be punished
I think we have a different view now. In the UK we are looking at a Post Office scandal where the upper management literally prosecuted its own employees for theft instead of admit a billion dollar computer system was buggy. And this started in 1990s, was printed in newspapers by the mid-2000s and only got serious last year and prosecutions will probably go through to the 2030s
I mean if the punishment for your misdeeds is thirty years delayed, and basically consists of retiring and being embarrassed in front of friends it’s hardly a punishment.
And it rather makes this “moles” efforts … well it’s not much of a deal for him is it really.
That's kinda the trouble with fighting these memes, it's legal to own guns, it's legal to hang out with your buddies and shoot guns and talk about overthrowing the government, it's legal to be friends with the sheriff, it's legal for the sheriff to be a white supremacist...
But all that shit's a powder keg, they're hoping for some nonsense like "race war" to set them off, and until then they have a lot of deniability.
Half the thread is saying they're incompetent but you think them getting(what they feel) is a call to action is powder keg. Feel like neither is actually true as a result.
I also see no reason why a group wanting to get a form of survival training(even with legal firearms) should be against the law unless they have made specific targeted threats of violence. That's usually what you need to press assault as a person. "They said they'd hurt me" doesn't cut it usually without details or clear evidence like video of the threat.
Not sure why for either side it's outside their rights. Keeping tabs is a good thing but they aren't exactly dominating headlines with their acts of violence
Your last sentence sounds completely unfounded and based on your own perception of these groups with no evidence of said "hoping for race wars"
(Edit I'm Canadian but spent a lot of time in the US. Am here now)
The relationship is the most 70s part of that movie. Holy cow. Its old enough I can chuckle at how sexist it is since I can't judge 50yo films by today's standards.
> He moved to Las Vegas and, at the age of 25, became an officer in the metro police. Kinch came to serve in elite detective units over 23 years in the force, hunting fugitives and helping take down gangs like the Playboy Bloods. Eventually he was assigned to what he called the “Black squad,” according to court records, tasked with investigating violent crimes where the suspect was African American. (A Las Vegas police spokesperson told me they stopped “dividing squads by a suspect’s race” a year before Kinch retired.)
That is crazy, you'd think that would be illegal under the Civil Rights Act. White criminals had a separate police force from black ones.
I'm white as heck but I wouldn't think that for a single moment. I know enough black Americans and enough about policing that I'm unsurprised. Also, I would categorize the spokesperson's response as 'PR' and an expected claim, which is not the same thing as an accurate claim.
As near as I can tell Black Lives Matter did not arise out of some sort of spite or radicalism, but out of the conditions Kinch's stated experience suggests. This pretty well contradicts the Civil Rights Act, something Kinch's stated experience also suggests.
It’s a bona fide occupational qualification, it’s completely legal under the Civil Rights Act and works the same way if for example Hollywood wants to hire a black actor or a Las Vegas club wants to hire female dancers. If said discrimination is necessary for a legitimate business function (And meets a couple of tests) it’s completely legal.
> It’s a bona fide occupational qualification, it’s completely legal under the Civil Rights Act and works the same way if for example Hollywood wants to hire a black actor or a Las Vegas club wants to hire female dancers.
I think you've misunderstood. It's clear from the article that the "Black squad" was so named because it specialised in investigating suspects who were Black, not because the officers in it were themselves Black.
A BFOQ can only apply to private hiring discrimination, not "having a separate police force when you are suspected of a crime based on race" discrimination. It's not employment rights at issue, so occupational qualifications are not relevant.
OTOH, the issue here is probably more 14th Amendment equal protection than statutory rights.
On the gripping hand, American police departments having racist practices that are internally well-known, and not being held accountable for them is..not at all surprising.
i can see why in highly segregated communities it might be more effective to have detectives who know xyz about a certain community, especially since criminal gangs tend to self-associate by race/ethnicity
would a police group dedicated to investigating the mafia be a violation of the civil rights act?
It's unfortunate, certainly, but it's probably very useful for police to have knowledge of and experience with the communities they're policing. In Canada police officers who are expected to work with indigenous communities often get special training to familiarize them with those cultures.
Sure, you (presumably) want the police to be sensitive to cultural issues -- the problem is you can't use skin color as an indicator of inclusion in a cultural group.
I was watching an interview the other day from one of the Tuskegee Airmen and just going by his physical appearance he looked as "European" as I do.
> A Las Vegas police spokesperson told me they stopped “dividing squads by a suspect’s race” a year before Kinch retired.
and later:
> In 2016, he turned in his badge, a year after the saga broke in the local press.
If all those facts are consistent, they had a 'Black squad' until 2015.
Edit: An aside in an article and piecing together facts that were not necessarily intended to be consistent can result in bad misunderstandings. We need more information to understand it.
But at the same time, let's be careful about proceeding like scientists and making the null hypothesis 'it wasn't racist' or even 'there isn't racism', requiring 99.9% certainty. That's one way members of the status quo perpetuate bad things, even without meaning to. It's a rationalization ('I'm thinking about this scientifically!') for plain old self-serving bias - I'm innocent of anything until there are scientific levels of proof, and then I'll still keep questioning it and probably just refuse to believe it. It's an impossible mountain to climb; in those discussions, the status quo will never agree.
There are other approaches, such as a preponderance of evidence, to borrow the legal term.
Is Williams black? I can see the argument for having black officers investigate black criminals, particularly if they're enterprises requiring infiltration.
An organized group of people arming themselves and training to fight against some present or future threat. Also not recognized as an official armed force of a country.
This first paragraph really made me LOL.
This here:
and thumb drives that each held more than 100 gigabytes of encrypted documents, which he would quickly distribute if he were about to be arrested or killed.
he wouldn't be distributing crap if either of those happened. The cops or killers would be in possession!
I mean was he going to say to the cops WAIT don't arrest me and hands stuff to bystander01!!!
I can't take this article serious at all.
> Unless otherwise noted, none of the militia members mentioned in this story responded to requests for comment
This is a serious story but this made me burst out laughing. Sorry, the PR agent for these heavily armed militias was unable to return my request for comments.
The moles are leading the militias, what are you talking about - 'infiltrated'? Enirque Tarrio was an FBI informant the entire time before he was arrested.
You seem to be arguing that the intelligence community should take independent actors more seriously than organized extremist groups. I'd recommend developing your position a bit more before trying sarcasm.
I'd also avoid rhetorical pitfalls like "TDS" which give you negative credibility in the eyes of most commenters.
“Trump Derangement Syndrome” for those unfamiliar. If it’s not already obvious, it is a rhetorical device used by some to invalidate and dismiss criticisms of Trump. “That’s just TDS!” etc.
After years of research, our mole discovered that "militia" members liked to dress in plus-sized camo and shoot legally-owned ARs on private property...
That description could fit a group of friends having wholesome fun, or a private army being raised with the goal of taking territory. These groups are somewhere in between, but closer to the latter. The main mitigating factor is that they’re usually pretty incompetent.
I have never heard of anyone in the developed world who would be afraid to criticize Al-Qaeda or the Taliban or Isis. Actually I have never heard anyone NOT criticize them when talking about them.
We do criticize them. A lot. But there are certain boundaries where people get scared.
Salman Rushdie’s Satanic Verses is the key example. Many refuse to translate it. It used to take courage for book stores to sell it.
It’s a bit weird how this became the cause for religious extemists. It’s not a hateful book. It received good reviews in Riyahd and Tehran when first published.
But I’m old enough to remember bookstores refusing to sell it. Multiple translators have been killed.
A similar line exists with visually depicting the Prophet Muhammad.
People get killed over this.
ChatGPT won’t show an image of the Sultan Mehmet II, but has no such qualms about the Sultan Sulieman the Magnificient.
I can’t get it to depict anyone named Muhammad, can you?
The way you spin 'with assistance' when this is the type of 'criminal assistance' they received is crazy (D.C. police intel chief found guilty of tipping off Proud Boys leader ahead of Jan. 6 attack):
The comment you are replying to states that some of the rioters had assistance entering and being led through the building - this has been shown on video multiple times. Others forcibly entering does not preclude that occurrence.
You must have been watching different videos of the event than I did, because I saw people breaking windows and forcing themselves against police, who were blocking doors.
Evidence of planning is available from court proceedings:
> Beginning in late December 2020, via encrypted and private communications applications, the defendants and various co-conspirators coordinated and planned to travel to Washington, D.C., on or around Jan. 6, 2021, the date of the certification of the electoral college vote. The defendants made plans to bring weapons to the area to support the operation. The co-conspirators then traveled across the country to the Washington, D.C., metropolitan area in early January 2021, with paramilitary gear and supplies including firearms, tactical vests with plates, helmets, and radio equipment.
The fact you are willing to attach your name and reputation to this post is a true indictment of our ability as a society to resist fascism and disinformation. This comment and the boldness in which you tried it will sit with me more impactfully than the original article.
The amount of supposed criminal activity by "militias" pales in comparison to the massive transnational mexican cartels - who have their own militias, whose ideology is money.
But manufacturing a right wing conspiracy is more important than discussing real narco terrorism that kills thousands of Americans and Mexicans every year, floods our country with lethal drugs, and finances North Korea and Chinese crime organizations.
How many headless corpses did the Oath keepers leave on the street last year?
How many metric tons of fentanyl did they smuggle?
While you're correct about the sheer scale of narco cartels you are incorrect to bluntly state that right wing conspiracy is manufactured.
While it may be small scale and clownish in appearence from a distance, it is real and does result in bombings, shootings, death, injury, and disruption.
Just discovered the existence of large scale armed political extremist groups in the States. Wow. And both left and right wing with any kind of mix of ideologies, too. I wonder how many of them are able to use a computer to find the myriad holes in the world's infrastructure.
Here is a really nice book to give some perspective:
End times, by Peter Turchin
Best most terrifying birthday present I ever got, I think.
Actually I think I'll put it as a post in and of itself, folks here may like it.
The military->domestic abuse->divorce->family court->terrorism pipeline is quite strong, as evidenced in LV and NOLA this week. Rather than larping in your "local militia" while being slowly but surely radicalized, consider professional help. Everyone can benefit from some therapy.
Thanks for sharing your perspective; HN really needs it; I could really benefit from it.
> The majority of "militia members" are just like me, middle age ex-military guys who lost their kids to an unfair, biased and broken "family court" system.
I can believe that and really I expect it. The majority of any movement aren't really true believers trying to burn things down.
How do you reconcile that with the militia group members that are planning and plotting and acting to burn things down? The most visible example was the January 6 attack, but of course there are plenty more.
Are they just segregated into different groups? Are there a few around but you think of them as ineffectual cranks? Do the groups, in this way, have different circles: the hard core, maybe another layer, and the people who like to hang out?
The majority of any movement aren't really true believers trying to burn things down, but some movements do try to burn things down. People just there to socialize sometimes find they supported something awful and turned a blind eye, when they should have done something or at least walked away. A genuine question: With everything happening, doesn't that cross your mind?
Unfortunately the spin cycle has anyone, including a lot of HN, believing that all militia members are the most violent and evil people living in the world.
Ironic given I reserve that title for ISIS who seems to have just recently radicalized another person to run over a bunch of people in New Orleans.
I have no particular love for these militias, but I’m not ignorant enough to believe the stuff media goes about parroting.
> all militia members are the most violent and evil people living in the world.
That's a strawperson. It doesn't have to be all. Groups that call themselves 'militias', arm and train themselves, plan violence, and sometimes perpetuate it. It's reasonable for the public to be concerned about them.
I was involved with a local militia for several years. The stuff that I've seen there has firmly convinced me of two things. First, those people are political and religious extremists that fantasize of violence against their perceived enemies and are basically waiting for an excuse and a leader to realize it. And second, if and when they do, many cops will look the other way (and some will be among their ranks).
> majority of "militia members" are just like me, middle age ex-military guys who lost their kids to an unfair, biased and broken "family court" system
Are you discussing assassinating politicians with your militia members? Did any of them march on the Capitol? If not, you’re not comparable to AP3. (If so, um, call a lawyer and a psychiatrist.)
I don’t understand the lack of interest by journalists. What more did Williams need to do the first time he reached out to garner interest? Does ProPublica overestimate the seriousness of the militia movement? I’d think based on J6 the journalists ignoring Williams’ communications should have paid attention.
Besides the things other comments mentioned: There is a longstanding sentiment that "It can't happen here".
The wider public in America more or less blocks out the risks involved. "They're not actually going to blow up the power grid."
Hell, just look at the tech industry. Endless whining about not needing to be regulated, and what have they done? Built an enormous surveilance machine, lead by executives who preemptively kowtow to any authoritarian leader. Europe's attempt to regulate this is still angrily opposed by heaps, even on this very site.
Yup
Normalcy bias — it's an absolute killer. The same cognitive failure that has people in a fire thinking it's "just part of the show", or "just something in the kitchen", until it is too late, and panic overtakes everyone. I've never seen a story of a fire where someone in the situation said "I wasn't sure what was going on, but it didn't seem good so I left early, I'm alive because I did!".
Normalcy bias can kill us all if we aren't careful.
Thanks for writing this: things are quite askew right now for various reasons, and it was unexpectedly affirming to hear someone say it loud.
Until now I would have said this is an extreme minority view, even though it's quite obvious and aligns with the core values I've seen on this site over the last 15 years, and thus presumed were tech in general's view.
Maybe I just need to get off X, the Everything App™, 90% of my news consumption and commentary is through there.
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It’s sort of alluded to but I suspect journalists get a whole lot of false tips from various mentally unhealthy folk, which perhaps appear much like Williams’ in this story.
Yeah, being contacted by someone who’s on a bespoke undercover mission in right-wing militias is huge. Being contacted by someone who’s says they are is another matter.
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Because it's just not interesting. He didn't find out anything exciting and basically nothing crazy happened. Its incredibly easy to join these organizations. Just show up. They aren't doing much of anything.
There's no shortage of street gangs, kill rappers, cartels,ethnic crime families, ransomware groups, terrorist etc that are actively killing people or committing wide scale crimes. Go join them and you could have a compelling story. Join the Nuwabian Moors and get to work on infiltrating the SuperMax.
Even corny ass biker gangs with their name on their "cut" occasionally get in shoot outs and have more interesting things going on then what is basically a middle aged version of the boy scouts.
I dont think journalists really find J6 to be important at all. Even left leaning journalists pay lip service to it but shrugs, buncha white dudes blowing off steam I think is how "everyone" sees this. As evidence, look at the election we just had.
It reminds me of how the World Trade Center was bombed in 1993. Oh, that was scary, well, whatever, the dudes in jail, shrugs. Because it failed to bring the building down. For me, I was like, holy crap people are trying to blow up the WTC arent they going to....keep trying? but that's just not how people think. Super scary thing that failed == ho hum.
> As evidence, look at the election we just had.
The amazing thing is how the right was able to essentially rewrite the history of Jan 6 over the last 4 years. Right after the incident even many Republican politicians in DC were calling for Trump's resignation and impeachment (or at least some resolution that would not allow him to run again). There was a huge amount of alarm in the immediate aftermath. But then the narrative about the events of that day slowly started to turn into "it was just a peaceful protest where a few bad apples got a bit out of hand" (that came right after the "it was antifa" stage which didn't last too long when it was clear that these folks were Trump supporters). Trump certainly minimized Jan 6 (to his benefit) and the rest of the GOP began to go along just as they've gone along with the idea that the 2020 election was "stolen" from Trump (and if they actually believe it was stolen then they can come to the conclusion that Jan 6 was justified as some of them do).
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Or, pertinent to the subject at hand, how the Oklahoma City bombing was tied to the right wing militia movement and they’re still mostly seen as, well, a bunch of white dudes blowing off steam like you said. In that case, it seems like people saw that they got the perpetrators and that’s that, not considering what sort of circumstances produced them and where it might go in the future.
And WTC and OKC were (at least somewhat) successful attacks! J6 caused damage but failed. We’re really bad at taking failed attempts seriously.
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> the journalists ignoring Williams’ communications
It's because just accepting a prepackaged story like this from a single source would completely fail to meet the standards of journalism.
Journalism has standards?
Because his story barely passes the sniff test.
He just up and joined a bunch of radical militias that he strongly disagrees with? I mean... maybe. But you'd of course be very suspicious of everything he says and his motives for coming forward.
The article's author was suspicious and skeptical too. That's why he read through the chat logs and audio recordings, and also interviewed former friends and militia members to corroborate the story. The article also explicitly calls out which of Williams' claims were uncorroborated or contradicted.
Genuinely asking: what other evidence are you looking for?
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I think he actually agreed with it. Then had a change of heart or they pissed him off. I would go with the latter. Myself. Plus really have to be careful doing solo stuff like this. Alot of actual bad guys would say. See I was telling a journalist etc. I am super under cover!
He might have been reaching out to journalists working for outlets that run cover for this militia movement. Based on J6 and subsequent developments in the justice system, there are media outlets cooperating with those authorities that downplay/join the militia movement.
This is an important side-light on the concept that media sources are 'grifting' and only interested in what will make them money. It's surprisingly common for media sources to turn away from stories that could be sensational and give them money, but at the expense of a cause (such as these paramilitaries) which someone at the media source supports.
In that case, the person at the media source making decisions will understand that the story is sensational and attention-getting, but will quash it because to run the story would be hurting the paramilitaries…
> Does ProPublica overestimate the seriousness of the militia movement?
Unclear. Depends on how supportive of it Trump is. He might legitimize it by pardoning the Jan. 6 attackers. Many of them thought they were acting on Trump's orders, after all. There was one platoon-sized Proud Boys unit on Jan. 6th that showed military organization and discipline. The rest were just a mob.
Having a private army of goons can be useful. That's what the SA was in the Nazi era. The SA was a big organization, 20x the size of the German army at peak. Eventually, it was put down once Hitler was firmly in power. See "Night of the Long Knives".[1] Other countries have been through this. Sometimes the goons ended up in charge, or at least as a large faction to be kept happy.
This is often seen after internal unrest that yields a large, restless, armed group. Germany got there by losing WWI, but not being crushed. Haiti is a classic example. Afghanistan seems to have gone down this road - all those former "fighters" have to be fed and kept busy.
The closest the US came was the "Bonus Army" camped out on the Mall after WWI, demanding a bonus for veterans.[2] The Bonus Army had 17,000 veteran soldiers, and some political and police support. Eventually they were forcibly dispersed.
US militias don't match any of those classic situations. They're mostly wannabees. If you encounter militia types, ask them if all their members use the same ammo. If not, they're a rabble, not an army.
Do we get to see the actual documents the original author talks about?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army
> US militias don't match any of those classic situations. They're mostly wannabees. If you encounter militia types, ask them if all their members use the same ammo. If not, they're a rabble, not an army.
Sure, but there's plenty of opportunity for asymmetric warfare. Several power stations have been attacked in various parts of the US over the last few years. They could be probing the power system for vulnerabilities (and there are plenty of those). Also, look at how lowish-cost drones are coming to dominate the Ukraine war.
Have you read the Congressional report on Jan 6th?
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The job of corporate media is to preserve the establishment, to perpetuate the status quo.
Sometimes, some token investigative journalism is allowed. (So long as those revelations do not challenge the status quo, natch.) Maintaining the charade of being the Forth Estate. Less so over time, as the "infotainment" biz model pioneered by USA Today transformed the industry. What kids today would call "enshitification."
FWIW, Propublica is a member of the so-called Fifth Estate, explaining why they can do what actual journalism.
Reading the article he found nothing right?
He found and could verify militia connections between various law enforcement, local and state government officials.
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If he does follow up with releasing incriminating files then that's not nothing. We'll see. I have hopes that he wasn't lying, I like nothing more than seeing traitors and treasonous cowards exposed to the light. I try to always stay centered and skeptical, but it would be a great reveal to expose these militia cowards skulking around the country.
Because as low as most journalist’s standard are, Williams is below that low standard. Though good enough for Pro Publica. He is an erratic, ex-con, who seems to be mentally unstable. Did you believe the puppy story?
If the journalist really verified the audio recordings I believe it. Faking so many hours of audio from multiple people is still difficult. I mean, you could do it with AI voices, but I doubt that's the case
Pro Publica is probably the most outstanding investigative journalist collective in the USA currently, unafraid to step on MAGA and militia toes despite their constant threats against journalistic freedom.
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Infinite Luigis Theory:
I get a sense that we are beginning to see a resurgence in lone-wolf style operator activism and crime (or terrorism, etc., depending on your view of things), sort of like was more common 30+ years ago, a la the Unibomber, Skyjacker, all of the serial killers in the 60-80s.
The reasons of “why now” and “why lone wolf” are complicated but mostly boil down to high availability of information (awareness of opsec) and relatively low trust amongst social groups and of institutions, coupled with a more online and more destabilized male demographic the younger you go.
Luigi was the first educated one we've seen in a while, not sure if its a trend yet. the rest are young with not much going for them, or homeless and have mental problems
Why does it matter if you read the theory or not before killing a CEO?
The more the behemoth of bureaucracy and total control will grind and (o)press the societies to atomized individuals, the more lone wolfs will crop up.
The difference between now and 30+ years ago is, you will be caught very quickly.
Yes and: the outrage machine results in mass self-radicalization.
> the outrage machine results in mass self-radicalization
I would think that radicalization is more likely caused by the center being more and more obviously fascist or corporatist or anti-people or whatever term you prefer.
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> Sowing that distrust is why Williams is going on the record, albeit without his original name
I don’t understand this. There’s an insane level of detail here that if true immediately reveals his identity to those involved. How does withholding his name change anything?
> On March 20… He’d helped persuade Seddon and his lieutenants to fire the head of AP3’s Utah chapter and to install Williams in his place.
I wonder if he also infiltrated under a fake name (possibly the same fake name).
I think the “albeit” is just an aside. It isn’t necessarily enhancing his ability to create distrust. It is slightly confusing though because one could of course imagine a way of writing the report anonymously that would add additional distrust; if he was vague enough it could be hard for anybody to know that he wasn’t talking about their organization. But he’d have to be pretty vague.
Furthermore, the journalist explicitly encouraged suspicion toward Williams:
> Remarkably, the AP3er defended Williams’ loyalty each time I asserted he’d secretly tried to undermine the group.
Is this how journalists protect sources? Seems strange to me.
I am guessing that his threat model includes people involved in these militias (or others) but who he didn't interact with directly. It probably also includes action by people merely sympathetic to them, for example maybe local law enforcement.
There can be a difference between revealing identity to some and revealing it to all. I'm not sure how much difference there is in this case specifically but it's not my life, not my call.
Do you know his name after reading the article?
I am not the one that would be a threat to his life or have context to reverse engineer his identity.
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Those details are not necessarily his firsthand account of things. I mean, in your own comment you quote something where Williams is posing as something else in order to take someone else down, why should it be any different in the case of providing these details?
Because the journalist is claiming to have validated the elements of the story. If the journalist is also lying about that or intentionally helping their source in lying that’s a huge breach of public trust and should be immediately blacklisted from working as such in the future. There are other ways the source could be protected without actually lying about things they’re claiming are true.
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This post makes me wonder why videos of militias training always look so farcical.
Practically, why are there not militia groups with Navy SEAL/Delta-level tactical abilities? Or at least near to that? Is it personnel selection effects or bc that level of training requires time/money investments that are out of the reach of non-professional organizations?
Possibly those with real abilities have the discipline to not publicise it in videos.
Also, in experience with self-organized volunteer organizations in different fields (not militias, etc.), the lack of discipline, organization, motivation, just basic thought is often shocking. The dysfunction can be overwhelming. I'm not surprised that very few have developed real capabilities.
> Navy SEAL/Delta-level
Maybe you didn't mean it literally, but that is a pretty high standard. It's like asking why you don't see local basketball players with NBA-level ability. 99.x% of military personnel, with years of training and experience, don't reach those levels.
You bring up some interesting points. The publicizing side of things makes sense. Although given how often you hear about ex-military, police, etc, members in groups like these, I'd still expect that we'd see a handful of criminal/terrorist activities taken out by highly competent groups, even if it's unclear who it is.
But that may get back to your point about discipline, motivation, intelligence, etc.
Re SEAL/Delta-level: I guess I'm asking two distinct questions.
1) To use your basketball analogy: while NBA-level skills may be an unreasonable expectation, why do the videos seem to show middle school or JV-level competence? I'd expect that D3 college-level competence wouldn't be super difficult, but evidently that isn't a correct assumption.
2) What is the practical requirement for a world-class tactical unit (or near that level, e.g. D1 basketball or a bad pro team)? I wouldn't expect current militias to be at that level, but what about less developed nation-states?
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My two bit understanding is that militias are mostly LARPing (in a very open sense)? And it’s not like they have a giant candidate pool
Probably important to consider that everything you know about SEALs etc are filtered through a massive PR system anyways. So you might not be comparing the same level of quality of video either. Good editing can do wonders.
> everything you know about SEALs etc are filtered through a massive PR system anyways.
I saw a joke about Navy Seals awhile ago that went something like:
A Navy Seal and a Delta Force operator are chatting in a bar. The Navy Seal immediately starts talking and bragging for hours about all the amazing things he and other Seals have done. The entire time the Delta Force operator smiles and nods.
In think it's personnel selection.
I think the militias don't get the top-of-the-line retired military people. They get the wannabes, the people who love the trappings of being tough and deadly, without the actual skills or training. Putting on my amateur psychologist's hat, I'd guess that the militia types mostly washed out in the military, but are still looking for what they went into the military to try to find - a sense of belonging and identity.
The real SEAL/Delta level people don't go into a militia to try to find that - they found it for real in the real military.
The love of military-style vests (and of the word 'tactical') seems like a signal.
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This is a good point, and the emphasis on belonging aligns with the article.
A trope of many action/thriller movies is groups of top-notch professionals becoming disenchanted with democracy and forming terrorist organizations. While movies aren't reality, it's striking that even watered-down versions almost never seem to happen. Maybe the military is just that good at filtering out those types during psychological testing, or maybe belonging is far more important than ideology.
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What you write sounds plausible at first, but then there’s this example from the German KSK:
„In 2018, the German Federal Criminal Police Office uncovered a plot involving unknown KSK soldiers to murder prominent German politicians such as Claudia Roth, Heiko Maas and Joachim Gauck among others, and carry out attacks against immigrants living in Germany.[7] Also, earlier that same year in a separate investigation, the State prosecutors in the city of Tübingen investigated whether neo-Nazi symbols were used at a "farewell" event involving members of KSK.[8][9]
In June 2020, German defence minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer announced that the unit would be partially disbanded due to growing far-right extremism within the ranks.[10] The KSK had become partially independent from the chain of command, with a toxic leadership culture. One of the force's four companies where extremism is said to be the most rife was to be dissolved and not replaced.[11]“
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kommando_Spezialkr%C3%A4fte
> why are there not militia groups with Navy SEAL/Delta-level tactical abilities?
Let's set aside talent, access to experience trainers, facilities and equipment and just look at time on task: real special forces operators spend 30-60 hours per week, 48 weeks a year (assuming 4 weeks of leave) working on their craft. Finding people that can put that kind of time in would be rare.
When you look at the other factors, the gap widens.
So if the militia doesn't hold a candle to the SEALs the why do they matter? Because of modern point and shoot repeating and guided weapons. We're seeing that in how the Russians are taking people off the streets and out of prisons, giving 1-3 week of training and throwing them at the Ukrainians. We saw that with the Ukrainians when they stopped huge Russian armored columns with man-portable anti-tank missiles. Bullets, grenades, ATGMs and drones really don't care about the experience level of their target. Artillery, even portable stuff like a pack mortar or repeating grenade launcher takes out any Spetznaz or Rangers in the general area you aim at just like it does any other soldier. The age of the super-proficient ended with the US Civil war: the revolver, repeating rifle and machine gun level skill gaps pretty quickly..
A large part of the FBI's job is to shut these militias down. You can't grow a resistance movement without making some noise, and the US government is obviously very keen on maintaining the status quo.
Examples from the past are easy to come by (COINTELPRO), but a recent example would be the failed 2020 kidnapping plot of Gretchen Whitmer, the Governor of Michigan at the time.
Thirteen arrests were announced, and the FBI has admitted to using three informants and two special agents. The defense argued that there were at least twelve.
Using the official number as a conservative guess, that's still 5 feds for 13 arrests (a 38% ratio!)
Now imagine if instead of 13 dudes trying to kidnap a governor, it was a local militia trying to arm and train hundreds or thousands of people. The full power of the US government to crush opposition is terrifying.
> Using the official number as a conservative guess, that's still 5 feds for 13 arrests (a 38% ratio!)
FYI an informant is not a fed.
The cost of training "special forces" personnel is likely beyond the financial capabilities of militia type organizations.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_SEAL_sele...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Boat_Service#Recruit...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_School
Exactly. And defense against tyranny is a legitimate thing. Militia's are not really special. It's unclear what it even means given many things are legal in the US.
I knew some of these guys when I lived in a rural area, calling them Gravy Seals is more accurate than tongue in cheek. They are well armed though.
> Practically, why are there not militia groups with Navy SEAL/Delta-level tactical abilities?
Because SEAL/Delta units are made up of statistical outliers who can keep their cortisol levels low under conditions that 99% of us absolutely cannot.
In addition to the prohibitive cost and effort to setup and maintain such a program, I believe all 50 states have laws on the books that make it illegal to organize and train in military tactics without prior authorization from the state.[1]
[1] https://www.law.georgetown.edu/icap/wp-content/uploads/sites...
The law doesn't say that at all. They're not allowed to perform law enforcement _functions_. There's nothing that prevents them from /training/ to do so.
A “paramilitary organization” is “an organization of two or more persons who engage or conspire to engage in military instruction or training in warfare or sabotage for the purpose of unlawfully causing physical injury to any person or unlawfully damaging the property of any person.” N.Y. Mil. Law § 240(6)(b)(i).
Perhaps, but do you think these groups would NOT train just because of some state law?
It feels like the "no scammers" thing you see on Craigslist ads; as if some scammer would say, "Darn, and I was really hoping to cash in on THIS one; I guess I'm out."
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Ah yes, the law… sworn enemy of the militia.
It's a volunteer organization. They all have the exact same problem because they don't actively select their members.
because if you have the mentality and resolve to produce SEAL-levels of ability, you don't end up in loser militias, you become a SEAL
And when you’re done being a SEAL, you use your skills in organization, focus, and motivation to succeed in business and having a normal life. Not cosplaying your old job with a bunch of dudes that suck.
> This post makes me wonder why videos of militias training always look so farcical.
This exactly - a few 300-pound dudes taking a break from their McDonalds to look like they really mean it by firing long barrelled weapons at some cardboard target. All this escape and evasion training, with all the wilderness stuff too - it's nonsense, little guys playing soldier is all.
this is that guy bringing his tactical knife to the forest and putting wax in a can to light a fire for a "bushcraft/survivalist" YouTube video, but in group
The first paragraph seems to be an invitation to create your own emergency procedure (mine would actually be less "wild"...).
My family had to evacuate a few times due to fires. One of them, the National Guard was outside my neighborhood helping to coordinate the chaos. I'll never forget seeing Humvees right outside my neighborhood while the sky was blood red and full of smoke. It was like a disaster scene out of a movie, except real life. Not fun as a kid...
We barely were able to find a hotel to go to.
Afterwards, my dad kept 4-6 duffel bags full of water, first aid, clothes, MREs/dry meals, and other gear so if we ever need to get out of the place, we'd be ready.
So yes, it's a good idea to have some supplies ready because you never know.
A “Bug Out Bag” is a pretty standard notion in the prepper and survival communities, also handy for fleeing disasters and power outages.
It’s also recommended by CALFIRE in California: https://readyforwildfire.org/prepare-for-wildfire/emergency-...
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I don't want to stoke panic about violence, but the fact is anything that you do that's prepper-adjacent is something you should do anyway:
1. prep your residence in can't you can't leave for days on end - something you should do to prepare for h5n1.
2. stock a bug out bag: most of you are in range of wild fires. So you need to do it.
Yeah, I wouldn't include vitamins in lieu of more cash or calories.
You might if you were already in the habit of taking them. Or if you were more worried about the quality of your future food than having any. They don't take much space or weight, so it's not that hard to include them.
I remember re-watching “three days of the condor” recently - and apart from a few “wow the 70s was a different time” moments the biggest takeaway was the hero just hands a dossier to the Washington Post, no drops off a dossier to the post room!, and the film, the audience, everyone just assumes the job is done - the bad guys are exposed and they will be punished
I think we have a different view now. In the UK we are looking at a Post Office scandal where the upper management literally prosecuted its own employees for theft instead of admit a billion dollar computer system was buggy. And this started in 1990s, was printed in newspapers by the mid-2000s and only got serious last year and prosecutions will probably go through to the 2030s
I mean if the punishment for your misdeeds is thirty years delayed, and basically consists of retiring and being embarrassed in front of friends it’s hardly a punishment.
And it rather makes this “moles” efforts … well it’s not much of a deal for him is it really.
That's kinda the trouble with fighting these memes, it's legal to own guns, it's legal to hang out with your buddies and shoot guns and talk about overthrowing the government, it's legal to be friends with the sheriff, it's legal for the sheriff to be a white supremacist...
But all that shit's a powder keg, they're hoping for some nonsense like "race war" to set them off, and until then they have a lot of deniability.
Half the thread is saying they're incompetent but you think them getting(what they feel) is a call to action is powder keg. Feel like neither is actually true as a result.
I'm not particularly fearful of these groups.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Left-wing_militant_...
I also see no reason why a group wanting to get a form of survival training(even with legal firearms) should be against the law unless they have made specific targeted threats of violence. That's usually what you need to press assault as a person. "They said they'd hurt me" doesn't cut it usually without details or clear evidence like video of the threat.
Not sure why for either side it's outside their rights. Keeping tabs is a good thing but they aren't exactly dominating headlines with their acts of violence
Your last sentence sounds completely unfounded and based on your own perception of these groups with no evidence of said "hoping for race wars"
(Edit I'm Canadian but spent a lot of time in the US. Am here now)
The relationship is the most 70s part of that movie. Holy cow. Its old enough I can chuckle at how sexist it is since I can't judge 50yo films by today's standards.
Good read. For a similar story I can recommend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mole:_Undercover_in_North_...
> He moved to Las Vegas and, at the age of 25, became an officer in the metro police. Kinch came to serve in elite detective units over 23 years in the force, hunting fugitives and helping take down gangs like the Playboy Bloods. Eventually he was assigned to what he called the “Black squad,” according to court records, tasked with investigating violent crimes where the suspect was African American. (A Las Vegas police spokesperson told me they stopped “dividing squads by a suspect’s race” a year before Kinch retired.)
That is crazy, you'd think that would be illegal under the Civil Rights Act. White criminals had a separate police force from black ones.
I'm white as heck but I wouldn't think that for a single moment. I know enough black Americans and enough about policing that I'm unsurprised. Also, I would categorize the spokesperson's response as 'PR' and an expected claim, which is not the same thing as an accurate claim.
As near as I can tell Black Lives Matter did not arise out of some sort of spite or radicalism, but out of the conditions Kinch's stated experience suggests. This pretty well contradicts the Civil Rights Act, something Kinch's stated experience also suggests.
It’s a bona fide occupational qualification, it’s completely legal under the Civil Rights Act and works the same way if for example Hollywood wants to hire a black actor or a Las Vegas club wants to hire female dancers. If said discrimination is necessary for a legitimate business function (And meets a couple of tests) it’s completely legal.
> It’s a bona fide occupational qualification, it’s completely legal under the Civil Rights Act and works the same way if for example Hollywood wants to hire a black actor or a Las Vegas club wants to hire female dancers.
I think you've misunderstood. It's clear from the article that the "Black squad" was so named because it specialised in investigating suspects who were Black, not because the officers in it were themselves Black.
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> It’s a bona fide occupational qualification
A BFOQ can only apply to private hiring discrimination, not "having a separate police force when you are suspected of a crime based on race" discrimination. It's not employment rights at issue, so occupational qualifications are not relevant.
OTOH, the issue here is probably more 14th Amendment equal protection than statutory rights.
On the gripping hand, American police departments having racist practices that are internally well-known, and not being held accountable for them is..not at all surprising.
Black Squad refers to who they are investigating, not the officers themselves.
i can see why in highly segregated communities it might be more effective to have detectives who know xyz about a certain community, especially since criminal gangs tend to self-associate by race/ethnicity
would a police group dedicated to investigating the mafia be a violation of the civil rights act?
No, that would be ridiculous. An “Italian squad” might be, though.
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It's unfortunate, certainly, but it's probably very useful for police to have knowledge of and experience with the communities they're policing. In Canada police officers who are expected to work with indigenous communities often get special training to familiarize them with those cultures.
Sure, you (presumably) want the police to be sensitive to cultural issues -- the problem is you can't use skin color as an indicator of inclusion in a cultural group.
I was watching an interview the other day from one of the Tuskegee Airmen and just going by his physical appearance he looked as "European" as I do.
nah, not crazy. it's pretty crazy to think that sort of shit doesn't happen.
From the OP:
> A Las Vegas police spokesperson told me they stopped “dividing squads by a suspect’s race” a year before Kinch retired.
and later:
> In 2016, he turned in his badge, a year after the saga broke in the local press.
If all those facts are consistent, they had a 'Black squad' until 2015.
Edit: An aside in an article and piecing together facts that were not necessarily intended to be consistent can result in bad misunderstandings. We need more information to understand it.
But at the same time, let's be careful about proceeding like scientists and making the null hypothesis 'it wasn't racist' or even 'there isn't racism', requiring 99.9% certainty. That's one way members of the status quo perpetuate bad things, even without meaning to. It's a rationalization ('I'm thinking about this scientifically!') for plain old self-serving bias - I'm innocent of anything until there are scientific levels of proof, and then I'll still keep questioning it and probably just refuse to believe it. It's an impossible mountain to climb; in those discussions, the status quo will never agree.
There are other approaches, such as a preponderance of evidence, to borrow the legal term.
Is Williams black? I can see the argument for having black officers investigate black criminals, particularly if they're enterprises requiring infiltration.
The black squad member was Bobby Kinch, “American, Christian, White, Heterosexual”
What does it even mean "militia" in the US? Is any group with weapons a militia? Is it a militia to gather and train and only worry about tyranny?
An organized group of people arming themselves and training to fight against some present or future threat. Also not recognized as an official armed force of a country.
This first paragraph really made me LOL. This here: and thumb drives that each held more than 100 gigabytes of encrypted documents, which he would quickly distribute if he were about to be arrested or killed.
he wouldn't be distributing crap if either of those happened. The cops or killers would be in possession! I mean was he going to say to the cops WAIT don't arrest me and hands stuff to bystander01!!! I can't take this article serious at all.
Reminds me of a story in Germany:
Verfassungsschutz moles have procured weapons for Nazi terrorists(1999-2011).
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalsozialistischer_Unterg...
> Unless otherwise noted, none of the militia members mentioned in this story responded to requests for comment
This is a serious story but this made me burst out laughing. Sorry, the PR agent for these heavily armed militias was unable to return my request for comments.
It’s just good journalism to give everyone in a story a chance to defend their position, even if those opportunities are often not taken up.
I have seen journalists give 24 hr to defend your position. Many times it’s zero time.
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The confusion comes from thinking these are organized groups with a solid chain of command, author seems wildly uninformed.
Most are loose gatherings of people who like shooting guns where people come and go week to week.
The one who seems confused is you, the section in the article talks about members themselves not some imaginary PR person.
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The moles are leading the militias, what are you talking about - 'infiltrated'? Enirque Tarrio was an FBI informant the entire time before he was arrested.
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You seem to be arguing that the intelligence community should take independent actors more seriously than organized extremist groups. I'd recommend developing your position a bit more before trying sarcasm.
I'd also avoid rhetorical pitfalls like "TDS" which give you negative credibility in the eyes of most commenters.
> TDS
“Trump Derangement Syndrome” for those unfamiliar. If it’s not already obvious, it is a rhetorical device used by some to invalidate and dismiss criticisms of Trump. “That’s just TDS!” etc.
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Would you say the other 10% was the 40 days in the desert eating chipmunks and currants? I felt like I was being trolled by a reverse Jesus story.
Trump is likely going to pardon anyone involved in Jan 6.
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After years of research, our mole discovered that "militia" members liked to dress in plus-sized camo and shoot legally-owned ARs on private property...
That description could fit a group of friends having wholesome fun, or a private army being raised with the goal of taking territory. These groups are somewhere in between, but closer to the latter. The main mitigating factor is that they’re usually pretty incompetent.
That and sedition and terrorism plots.
“It was a world where a man would propose assassinating politicians, only to spark a debate about logistics.”
Completely new motion, eh, that, ah-- that there be, ah, immediate action--
FRANCIS: Ah, once the vote has been taken.
REG: Well, obviously once the vote's been taken. You can't act another resolution till you've voted on it...
One of the biggest threats to the country according to the FBI!
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There's a credible organization.
I mean Ted Kaczynski liked a nice glass of water, maybe he wasn’t a bad guy?
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I have never heard of anyone in the developed world who would be afraid to criticize Al-Qaeda or the Taliban or Isis. Actually I have never heard anyone NOT criticize them when talking about them.
We do criticize them. A lot. But there are certain boundaries where people get scared.
Salman Rushdie’s Satanic Verses is the key example. Many refuse to translate it. It used to take courage for book stores to sell it.
It’s a bit weird how this became the cause for religious extemists. It’s not a hateful book. It received good reviews in Riyahd and Tehran when first published.
But I’m old enough to remember bookstores refusing to sell it. Multiple translators have been killed.
A similar line exists with visually depicting the Prophet Muhammad.
People get killed over this.
ChatGPT won’t show an image of the Sultan Mehmet II, but has no such qualms about the Sultan Sulieman the Magnificient.
I can’t get it to depict anyone named Muhammad, can you?
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Check the references on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planning_of_the_January_6_Un... for a good place to start your research.
Wikipedia is not a source and 14 people convicted from thousands makes your conspiracy claim appear weaker rather than stronger.
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The way you spin 'with assistance' when this is the type of 'criminal assistance' they received is crazy (D.C. police intel chief found guilty of tipping off Proud Boys leader ahead of Jan. 6 attack):
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/former-d...
If you care enough to 'correct the record' with internet posts go back and educate yourself with the actual videos not small propaganda snippets.
Not a Destiny fan but his notes on the topic are a good starting place as well:
https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/January_6th_Insurrection_(Obsid...
It's not at all a bold claim. The founder of the Oath Keepers was convicted, tried, and found guilty of "seditious conspiracy" in a court of law.
You are are either lying, or guilty of severe inattention, if you go around claiming that "all the evidence we have seen" shows that. e.g.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/oath-kee...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iludfj6Pe7w <- That's a forcible breach, not "being let through"
The comment you are replying to states that some of the rioters had assistance entering and being led through the building - this has been shown on video multiple times. Others forcibly entering does not preclude that occurrence.
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You must have been watching different videos of the event than I did, because I saw people breaking windows and forcing themselves against police, who were blocking doors.
Evidence of planning is available from court proceedings:
> Beginning in late December 2020, via encrypted and private communications applications, the defendants and various co-conspirators coordinated and planned to travel to Washington, D.C., on or around Jan. 6, 2021, the date of the certification of the electoral college vote. The defendants made plans to bring weapons to the area to support the operation. The co-conspirators then traveled across the country to the Washington, D.C., metropolitan area in early January 2021, with paramilitary gear and supplies including firearms, tactical vests with plates, helmets, and radio equipment.
[1] https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/four-oath-keepers-found-guilt...
The fact you are willing to attach your name and reputation to this post is a true indictment of our ability as a society to resist fascism and disinformation. This comment and the boldness in which you tried it will sit with me more impactfully than the original article.
The amount of supposed criminal activity by "militias" pales in comparison to the massive transnational mexican cartels - who have their own militias, whose ideology is money.
But manufacturing a right wing conspiracy is more important than discussing real narco terrorism that kills thousands of Americans and Mexicans every year, floods our country with lethal drugs, and finances North Korea and Chinese crime organizations.
How many headless corpses did the Oath keepers leave on the street last year?
How many metric tons of fentanyl did they smuggle?
Yep.
So right wing millitants conspiring to overthrow the US government aren't something we should discuss because mexican drug cartels exist?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Mexican cartels have more money weapons and men than all the "right wing militias" combined.
So, yeah. Let's worry about a dozen guys in Idaho.
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While you're correct about the sheer scale of narco cartels you are incorrect to bluntly state that right wing conspiracy is manufactured.
While it may be small scale and clownish in appearence from a distance, it is real and does result in bombings, shootings, death, injury, and disruption.
Just discovered the existence of large scale armed political extremist groups in the States. Wow. And both left and right wing with any kind of mix of ideologies, too. I wonder how many of them are able to use a computer to find the myriad holes in the world's infrastructure.
Here is a really nice book to give some perspective: End times, by Peter Turchin Best most terrifying birthday present I ever got, I think.
Actually I think I'll put it as a post in and of itself, folks here may like it.
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The military->domestic abuse->divorce->family court->terrorism pipeline is quite strong, as evidenced in LV and NOLA this week. Rather than larping in your "local militia" while being slowly but surely radicalized, consider professional help. Everyone can benefit from some therapy.
People need to socialize with other humans that understand them. Therapy can be great and necessary, but it's not sufficient.
Thanks for sharing your perspective; HN really needs it; I could really benefit from it.
> The majority of "militia members" are just like me, middle age ex-military guys who lost their kids to an unfair, biased and broken "family court" system.
I can believe that and really I expect it. The majority of any movement aren't really true believers trying to burn things down.
How do you reconcile that with the militia group members that are planning and plotting and acting to burn things down? The most visible example was the January 6 attack, but of course there are plenty more.
Are they just segregated into different groups? Are there a few around but you think of them as ineffectual cranks? Do the groups, in this way, have different circles: the hard core, maybe another layer, and the people who like to hang out?
The majority of any movement aren't really true believers trying to burn things down, but some movements do try to burn things down. People just there to socialize sometimes find they supported something awful and turned a blind eye, when they should have done something or at least walked away. A genuine question: With everything happening, doesn't that cross your mind?
> The majority of "militia members" are ... middle age ex-military guys who lost their kids to an unfair, biased and broken "family court" system.
Cite? I mean, really, what?
Unfortunately the spin cycle has anyone, including a lot of HN, believing that all militia members are the most violent and evil people living in the world.
Ironic given I reserve that title for ISIS who seems to have just recently radicalized another person to run over a bunch of people in New Orleans.
I have no particular love for these militias, but I’m not ignorant enough to believe the stuff media goes about parroting.
> all militia members are the most violent and evil people living in the world.
That's a strawperson. It doesn't have to be all. Groups that call themselves 'militias', arm and train themselves, plan violence, and sometimes perpetuate it. It's reasonable for the public to be concerned about them.
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ISIS is a militia, you're not making any sense.
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I was involved with a local militia for several years. The stuff that I've seen there has firmly convinced me of two things. First, those people are political and religious extremists that fantasize of violence against their perceived enemies and are basically waiting for an excuse and a leader to realize it. And second, if and when they do, many cops will look the other way (and some will be among their ranks).
> Don't be like the author, instead be a man, use Linux and join your local militia.
This makes so little sense as to border on unhingery.
> majority of "militia members" are just like me, middle age ex-military guys who lost their kids to an unfair, biased and broken "family court" system
Are you discussing assassinating politicians with your militia members? Did any of them march on the Capitol? If not, you’re not comparable to AP3. (If so, um, call a lawyer and a psychiatrist.)
As a vet, get some help bro and stop hanging around the militia losers.
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Frustrating article. They didn't discuss the goals of the militia's or their concerns at all. The spy was basically a one man militia.
Whole thing smells.