Comment by globalise83
4 days ago
The kind of school you went to sounds very different from the grammar school that my working-class father went to in the 1960s and that helped him escape a life of asbestos-breathing drudgery in moribund shipyards.
4 days ago
The kind of school you went to sounds very different from the grammar school that my working-class father went to in the 1960s and that helped him escape a life of asbestos-breathing drudgery in moribund shipyards.
There were problems with the grammar school system as well.
They were created to provide a pathway to the middle class for bright children from working class families. But the entrance exam was heavily biased in favour of children from middle class backgrounds.
Famously the first 11+ tests had questions like "Name the various types of servants in a household and what they do".
In later years, getting out of school tuition was the main way to prep for the 11+, which put grammar schools financially out of reach for a lot of working class families. It had basically become a parallel state funded education system for the middle class.
Can confirm.
My kid got in, and it turns out everyone else used a tutor (I stupidly took the advice not to do so from his teacher, who thought he'd get in just fine). This is in fact why playdates seemed to die out in the year or two before the test, the kids were being tutored but for some reason nobody would admit it.
When I went for the intro evening, the parents were simply the same kinds of people (often the same actual people) as the private primary where my kid went. Essentially, it is a private school where you don't pay fees. Same parents, with £30K more in the bank each year. The kids get into the top unis at a similar rate to the local fancy private school, which takes in all the classmates who didn't get in.
I have to say, they are a good bunch of kids. There's none of the bullying problems that everyone else is reporting in my kid's year. They have an environment where they have other quite nerdy kids doing nerdy kid stuff, without judgement.
But they are not a socially diverse bunch of kids. I'm not seeing any social mobility at all. Where are the kids whose parents are in the trades? Parents who aren't working? How come everyone I meet works in finance, law, accounting, medicine, or other white collar work?
I think it's the tutoring. It lets the marginal white collar kids win over the marginal "other social class" kids.
I am guessing you live in an area with high average housing prices in the catchment area of your school? Over the past 60 years, several generations of parents moving to catchment areas of good schools creates a self-reinforcing loop where only middle class people can afford to live near good schools.
My parents were both grammar school kids with working class parents, who didn't get any special prep for the 11+ beyond what their state primary school gave them. Both were the first people in their families to go to university and both managed to get into Oxford (where they met!). There was definitely a sweet point period when the system did what it intended in that sense, but there was obviously the drawback that if you ended up in the comprehensive system, you were stuck there and you had a situation where children got labelled at a young age.
Obviously some areas still have grammar schools and the impression I get from people living in those areas is that to stand a fighting chance with the 11+, you need out of school tuition or for your parents to be educated enough and have time to tutor you yourself. House prices are also obviously high in grammar school areas too! I've seen recent 11+ papers and having bright children at state schools around that age who are at the top of their year academically, I think they would struggle with them without any preparation or tuition.
> But the entrance exam was heavily biased in favour of children from middle class backgrounds.
> Famously the first 11+ tests had questions like "Name the various types of servants in a household and what they do".
That doesn't sound like a question a middle class kid would know anything about - not unless your definition of "middle class" is far different from mine.
British "middle class" is a higher class than US "middle class", and servants were relatively cheaper back then.
Think in terms of the family in Mary Poppins. That's Middle Class.
> In later years, getting out of school tuition was the main way to prep for the 11+, which put grammar schools financially out of reach for a lot of working class families. It had basically become a parallel state funded education system for the middle class.
But given most schools now in the country (given only a small subset still have grammar schools) are done by catchment area, much of this still exists in comprehensive education too. Now, if you're well off you just buy a house in the right area so your kids get in to the good school.
Yeah, that's the new problem.
I suspect in the past, people were less mobile, there wasn't the same disparity in wealth between different localities in the same general area, and school league tables weren't published. So the idea of moving to an area for (among other things) better education for their children wasn't something that was done.
1 reply →
"Name the various types of servants in a household and what they do"
This is incredible...
For non-british readers; state-funded Grammar schools famously, were abolished.
(I’m being downvoted, but this just objective fact, and something my grandfather brings up commonly).
EDIT: according to a lot of HN comments; they still seem to exist but they aren't evenly distributed.
There certainly were none in my city.
Despite one being named a grammar school, it does not follow a grammar school curriculum: https://www.coventrypublicschools.org/schools/cgs
How messy.
No they weren’t. There are still many (163 according to a very quick google search) selective schools in the UK with entrance based on taking the 11+ exam.
Edit to clarify they are state funded and not private.
Just to confuse things, some former grammar schools turned into private schools but kept 'grammar' in their name.
But to confirm, there are still areas that have state grammar schools and have the 11 plus: Buckinghamshire, Essex and Kent spring to mind as the obvious ones in the South East.
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This is just incorrect information.
> By the end of the 1980s, all of the grammar schools in Wales and most of those in England had closed or converted to comprehensive schools. Selection also disappeared from state-funded schools in Scotland in the same period.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammar_school
There are private schools that call themselves grammar schools (paid schools, not state funded) and some grammar schools still exist in Northern Ireland.
But the system that defined what a grammar school is - has long since been abolished, and all free-access grammar schools were completely gone from my area before I was even born.
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EDIT: seems like the some state funded selective grammar schools exist but they are not exactly distributed evenly.
So, I am wrong; and this situation is actually significantly more class-enforcing than it used to be. Amazing.
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The vast bulk of councils in the UK abolished the 11+ system. It does still exist in some places. Unfortunately, the system was ditched by the Labour government of 1976. Our current Labour lot are trying to do the same thing to our private schooling system.
One of the past Labour governments decided that there should be no new grammar schools created. So the existing ones continued to function but, as some closed down, their number diminished.
There's one just down the road from me.