Comment by hmcq6
4 days ago
> Also, in what upside-down universe is a forcibly expelled indigenous people returning home 'colonial'?
Because they weren't forcibly expelled from Palestine!
If I get unlawfully evicted from my new apartment that doesn't give me the right to go take my old apartment by force.
By your logic I can use my 23 and me to prove the whole world belongs to me (excluding Australia and Antartica). That's not how this works.
I do not normally swear, but what the fuck? We absolutely were expelled (genocided, really).
Or what else would you call the Romans banning us from our holy city Jerusalem (and renaming it, just like they renamed the whole region to try to deny our indigenousness, and also bulldozing our temple--you can go see it today, it's underneath the Al-Aqsa Mosque) and selling us as slaves around the empire and subsequent rulers forbidding us to return!?
1. Romans didn't just wake up one day and decide to banish ancient israelites from Jerusalem, they responded to the brutal and murderous revolt where local roman government was murdered.
2. DNA analysis showed that european jews (especially secular zionists) have no connection to the land of Palestine, it is Palestinians, Jordanian Christians, and Samaritans who are native.
3. Slavery is bad, a lot of people were sold as slaves throughout the history. Lets talk about who owned all trans-atlantic slave trade to America? Who brought all slaves in Caribbeans and American south ?
It was Dutch Jewish slave traders who were leading the slave trade
Now can we talk about reparations for slavery from Israel to all the Black Americans and mixed race people who are descendants of slaves?
TL;DR: After spending more time than reasonable gathering sources, I can conclude that, save for the first sentence in point 3 (and questions), every single sentence either justifies Israel's current conduct, is a flat-out lie, or both. It took me very little time to actually gather one source against these claims, I just wanted a ton.
> brutal...revolt
It was a rebellion. Against a settler-colonial group. You have previously expressed support for the exact same thing.
If that justifies genocide, what complaints do you have about Gaza? You should be cheering Israel on - Hamas killed innocents, back then they killed the people actually responsible (still bad but a different level).
Unless, of course, what really matters is that in one case it's the Jews being killed.
>DNA analysis
Also, about DNA analysis - what kind of DNA analysis do you have? Jews absolutely are connected genetically[1] and culturally[2]. Nice try, but false.
Also, most Israeli Jews aren't even European, as anyone with even the slightest amount of knowledge would know - they're from the Middle East and North Africa, having been pushed out by rising antisemitism after the creation of the state of Israel.
Also, reminder: historically, conversion was not allowed, neither was intermarriage, and even if it was it would not have been at all accepted by anyone, and given that Jews often had no legal recourse, were sold as slaves, and were at one point (following our revolt but that's beside the point) raped so much the rabbis decided "screw it Judaism is matrilineal now", and that genes can't tell you how they got there, this is in all probability blaming us for being raped too much.
Also: genotype is not indigenousness. End of goddamn discussion.
> slave trade
First of all, IF Dutch Jews controlled the slave trade, then the logical solution would be for Dutch Jews to partially pay reparations. But most Jews aren't Dutch; my family, for instance, traces its origins to places like Lithuania, Germany, Russia, Moldova, et cetera -- eastern Europe. (Before that, of course, Israel. But that's beside the point.) And as noted, most Israeli Jews are also not of Dutch descent. If it is Dutch Jews, one would think, well, Dutch Jews ought to be responsible, and not Jews whose ancestors never set foot in the Netherlands. (Never mind that the slave trade was only a small part of slavery).
But more importantly: they didn't. Your claim, as usual, is factually incorrect, in two ways. First of all, the Netherlands wasn't that big a player in the slave trade[3] and secondly it wasn't run by Dutch Jews[4].
In fact, it can be established that at most 70 percent of slave traders could be Jews.[5] ("Could be" meaning "if the moment they were allowed back into a country they immediately took over all slave trading by that country and also if they were let in in 1786 but 1776-1800 are lumped together they were let in 10 years early", to be clear.)
I look forward to your detailed rebuttal with well-documented, reliable, citations (no, Protocols of the Elders of Zion does not count)! Or your acceptance that you are factually inaccurate. Either one is fine; the former demonstrates a willingness to back up claims, the latter a willingness to admit wrongness. For now, I consider my copious citations sufficient to shift the burden of proof to you.
[1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00439-003-1073-7, https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal..., https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1274378/, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1380291/, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3032072/, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3543766/, https://www.nature.com/articles/5201156, https://www.nature.com/articles/nature09103, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC18733/, https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s004390000426.
[2] https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/israel-in-jewish-th..., https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-jewish-connecti..., https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-land-of-israel-..., https://www.jewfaq.org/land_of_israel, https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articl..., https://www.jimena.org/jewish-indigeneity-to-israel/; see also a post I made on Tumblr cataloging SOME of the prayers and connections, I only made it through a few pages: https://www.tumblr.com/indecisiveavocado/770503368897609728/....
[3] https://oxfordre.com/africanhistory/display/10.1093/acrefore.... "The Dutch share in the Atlantic slave trade averaged about 5 to 6 percent of the total...During the first eighty years after Columbus, the Atlantic slave trade remained firmly in the hands of the Portuguese [who, I note, had expelled their Jews in 1496]." See also the first link in footnote 5 below.
[4] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/02619288.1993.99.... "Closer attention to the role played by Jews in the development of the trade, and its associated enterprises, suggests that little direct involvement can be identified. In the Dutch slave trade Jews can be said to have had tangible significance, but even here their involvement was relatively marginal.", https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jews-and-the-africa..., https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1994/12/22/the-slave-trade-... [archive link: https://archive.ph/esARr], https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/sla..., https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/slavery, https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt9qg5gs. Again, I welcome a rebuttal, but I consider this sufficient to shift the burden of proof to you.
[5] volume: https://www.nps.gov/ethnography/aah/aaheritage/histcontextsd..., end date for Portugal: https://blog.nli.org.il/en/portugal_inquisition/, end date for UK: https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/history/350..., end date for Spain after 1800, others seemingly inapplicable but unsure; math left as an exercise for the reader.
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