They could form a bi-ethnic country that incorporates both Jews and Palestinians with full rights. Or they could allow the Palestinians to have a state while retaining a Jewish state.
There's no reason why giving Palestinians rights and self determination would necessitate Jews to leave or even to abolish their country.
> Or they could allow the Palestinians to have a state while retaining a Jewish state.
The Palestinians won't take it because it would mean Zionism survives and they lose (sorry , that's how Palestinians and their supporters see it currently and for the last century). Bi ethnic country would work worse than it does in Lebanon (where it doesn't work at all) - it would be anarchy followed by bloodshed (of defenseless Jews) and another big wave of Jewish immigrants to countries that don't and never have particularly liked them.
I don't think it's quite that simple. Palestinian support for a two state solution has varied over time (e.g. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution#Public_opin... and the associated citations). I don't see any reason why it couldn't work under the right circumstances (e.g. Jerusalem as an international zone, compensation in place of Palestinian Right of Return, guarantees that Palestine would be protected, etc.).
What do you mean by "defenseless Jews"? Gun ownership is quite high in Israel and most of the population has military experience. I'd be much more concerned about it going the other way if anything.
I mean, this is the exact same logic people used as for why black slaves could not be freed (they'd take revenge on their former masters) or why apartheid South Africa couldn't end (they'd take revenge on their former superiors).
It may even be true, but it's morally not enough to continue to excuse ethnic hierarchy
Judaism is a religion. Being jew is not a nationality. More than 1 out of 4 israelis aren't jews, almost 20% are muslims, 2% are christians, there are also druzes, atheists and many others.
As you said, jews have lived there for millenias in what was called until very recently Palestine. Jews were palestinian before zionism. They could still be.
One country, one man, one vote. It is the only ethical way forward. Democracy moves conflicts from the realm of violence to politics. Abandon the idea that Jews have to be the majority vote.
Would you be okay with being responsible for the never before seen bloodshed that would result in, with millions of innocent people dying as the direct result of your actions?
Stay in the land that was allotted in 1967 (or 1948), don’t create settlements, allow the Palestinians territories to self govern and have open borders. Obviously that won’t stop bad faith actors like Hamas but that’s not going to stop with a war either. Bibi majorly screwed up by ignoring Gaza and allocating troops to guard West Bank settlements. Not claiming this will be a panacea, but I don’t see how Israel’s current plan will accomplish anything more than perpetual conflict and an increasingly radicalized population on both sides. Oh and kick out Itamar Ben-Gvir and the rest of the ultra right wing.
These are debatable arguments but at least fair and in good faith. I'm not at all saying that Israel is without fault in the current conflict or the decades worth of conflict going back to the formation of the state in 1948. However, I do argue that it has a right to exist, and by virtue of the settlement and development its millions of residents have invested in across the decades, that right is further fortified into the present day. Anyone simply rejecting this seems to ignore explaining what would be done to the millions of Jews living there.
I also argue that the political organizations representing the Palestinians (Hamas definitely included here) and several neighboring governments that have supported these organizations also have their own fault in not only prolonging conflict with unreasonable demands of their own against Israel, but also have fault in mistreating their own people in brutally cynical ways.
Israel was accused when it build a wall towards Gaza, but in the end it protected from suicide attacks of brainwashed children that were instrumentalized by a fundamentalist genocidal cult.
A lot of Palestinians did work in Israel, given that is over for quite some time now for Gazans at least.
I can agree on Ben-Gvir being a moron, but Israel justifiably demands security guarantees.
> blame upon a society largely built and carved out of barren land over decades of great difficulty
First, not all of it was "barren land": Not the places that were ethnically cleansed in 48 and 67. Second, you think any of it gives any society the license to do whatever they please?
> most bloodthirsty genocidal persecutions
Zionists back then didn't really care about those being persecuted in the diaspora [0], though they do find it fit to use it to justify their adventures in colonialism.
> having built a real country
The problem is, it is a phantom country for ~50% of the inhabitants under occupation.
> their desire for the total elimination of the Jewish nation of millions
Speaking of desires, one side is already acting on theirs to eliminate another peoples [1].
> Zionists back then didn't really care about those being persecuted in the diaspora
Zionists themselves were mostly victims . My grandfather and grandmother fled from Germany to Palestine in the 30s , a bit after Hitler got into power. I guess technically they were Zionists because they fled to Palestine as Jews, and took part in the state, but I don't think they particularly cared about Jewish statehood - they just wanted to live. All their family left behind in Europe was wiped out - this is the story of many of the so called colonialist Zionists.
They came with nothing, lost everything and then had to endure all the wars in Israel as well. There's nothing particularly special about the story of my grandfather and grandmother, it's the story of most Ashkenazi Jews in Israel.
You can call it "adventures in colonialism" and link to some bullshit articles all you want, but history is history.
They could form a bi-ethnic country that incorporates both Jews and Palestinians with full rights. Or they could allow the Palestinians to have a state while retaining a Jewish state.
There's no reason why giving Palestinians rights and self determination would necessitate Jews to leave or even to abolish their country.
> Or they could allow the Palestinians to have a state while retaining a Jewish state.
The Palestinians won't take it because it would mean Zionism survives and they lose (sorry , that's how Palestinians and their supporters see it currently and for the last century). Bi ethnic country would work worse than it does in Lebanon (where it doesn't work at all) - it would be anarchy followed by bloodshed (of defenseless Jews) and another big wave of Jewish immigrants to countries that don't and never have particularly liked them.
I don't think it's quite that simple. Palestinian support for a two state solution has varied over time (e.g. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution#Public_opin... and the associated citations). I don't see any reason why it couldn't work under the right circumstances (e.g. Jerusalem as an international zone, compensation in place of Palestinian Right of Return, guarantees that Palestine would be protected, etc.).
What do you mean by "defenseless Jews"? Gun ownership is quite high in Israel and most of the population has military experience. I'd be much more concerned about it going the other way if anything.
I mean, this is the exact same logic people used as for why black slaves could not be freed (they'd take revenge on their former masters) or why apartheid South Africa couldn't end (they'd take revenge on their former superiors).
It may even be true, but it's morally not enough to continue to excuse ethnic hierarchy
2 replies →
The main issue transpires in your comment.
Judaism != Israël
Judaism is a religion. Being jew is not a nationality. More than 1 out of 4 israelis aren't jews, almost 20% are muslims, 2% are christians, there are also druzes, atheists and many others.
As you said, jews have lived there for millenias in what was called until very recently Palestine. Jews were palestinian before zionism. They could still be.
"The Jewish people are an ethnoreligious group.."
From Wikipedia. You are absolutely wrong here, it is as much an ethnicity as it is a religion.
"Palestinian" didn't mean anything before, it's just the name of a land where Jews and Arabs coexisted.
One country, one man, one vote. It is the only ethical way forward. Democracy moves conflicts from the realm of violence to politics. Abandon the idea that Jews have to be the majority vote.
Would you be okay with being responsible for the never before seen bloodshed that would result in, with millions of innocent people dying as the direct result of your actions?
We just saw a year of never before seen bloodshed
> One country
What fraction of the people on the ground want this?
Would you also apply this solution to Russia-Ukraine? Create one state out of both?
Can Trump do the same to Greenland, declare it’s one country with the USA and have a democratic vote on it?
Stay in the land that was allotted in 1967 (or 1948), don’t create settlements, allow the Palestinians territories to self govern and have open borders. Obviously that won’t stop bad faith actors like Hamas but that’s not going to stop with a war either. Bibi majorly screwed up by ignoring Gaza and allocating troops to guard West Bank settlements. Not claiming this will be a panacea, but I don’t see how Israel’s current plan will accomplish anything more than perpetual conflict and an increasingly radicalized population on both sides. Oh and kick out Itamar Ben-Gvir and the rest of the ultra right wing.
These are debatable arguments but at least fair and in good faith. I'm not at all saying that Israel is without fault in the current conflict or the decades worth of conflict going back to the formation of the state in 1948. However, I do argue that it has a right to exist, and by virtue of the settlement and development its millions of residents have invested in across the decades, that right is further fortified into the present day. Anyone simply rejecting this seems to ignore explaining what would be done to the millions of Jews living there.
I also argue that the political organizations representing the Palestinians (Hamas definitely included here) and several neighboring governments that have supported these organizations also have their own fault in not only prolonging conflict with unreasonable demands of their own against Israel, but also have fault in mistreating their own people in brutally cynical ways.
Israel was accused when it build a wall towards Gaza, but in the end it protected from suicide attacks of brainwashed children that were instrumentalized by a fundamentalist genocidal cult.
A lot of Palestinians did work in Israel, given that is over for quite some time now for Gazans at least.
I can agree on Ben-Gvir being a moron, but Israel justifiably demands security guarantees.
> blame upon a society largely built and carved out of barren land over decades of great difficulty
First, not all of it was "barren land": Not the places that were ethnically cleansed in 48 and 67. Second, you think any of it gives any society the license to do whatever they please?
> most bloodthirsty genocidal persecutions
Zionists back then didn't really care about those being persecuted in the diaspora [0], though they do find it fit to use it to justify their adventures in colonialism.
> having built a real country
The problem is, it is a phantom country for ~50% of the inhabitants under occupation.
> their desire for the total elimination of the Jewish nation of millions
Speaking of desires, one side is already acting on theirs to eliminate another peoples [1].
[0] https://jewishjournal.com/news/worldwide/151463/the-diaspora...
[1] https://www.mekomit.co.il/ps/134005/
> Zionists back then didn't really care about those being persecuted in the diaspora
Zionists themselves were mostly victims . My grandfather and grandmother fled from Germany to Palestine in the 30s , a bit after Hitler got into power. I guess technically they were Zionists because they fled to Palestine as Jews, and took part in the state, but I don't think they particularly cared about Jewish statehood - they just wanted to live. All their family left behind in Europe was wiped out - this is the story of many of the so called colonialist Zionists.
They came with nothing, lost everything and then had to endure all the wars in Israel as well. There's nothing particularly special about the story of my grandfather and grandmother, it's the story of most Ashkenazi Jews in Israel.
You can call it "adventures in colonialism" and link to some bullshit articles all you want, but history is history.
> bullshit articles
Bullshit? By Jewish/Israeli Holocaust experts?
Yeah well, reality has many perspectives. Don't be an atrocity denier like those who you, as a European Jew, probably hate.
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