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Comment by mandmandam

3 days ago

Apartheid, oppression, occupation, genocide, and ethno-nationalist supremacy are "just wrong", and not all that complex once you get past the lie that they don't exist.

Also, the comment's "main thrust" was in response to the claim that the area is 'just always like that', for 'thousands of years', which is categorically untrue; a deliberate thought-terminating lie. Israel's terror campaign and colonialist brutality of the last 80 years is something quite new and different, based as it is on brutal British and American colonial strategies.

37 comments

mandmandam

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sempron64  3 days ago

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  • ignoramous  3 days ago

    > Go to Israel and look at the well dressed Palestinians shopping in the major malls in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv and think about if that is really what apartheid looks like.

    Look at these well-dressed Polish Jews in a bar in the Warsaw Ghetto and think about if that is really what genocide looks like. Come on now! https://www.theholocaustexplained.org/the-camps/the-warsaw-g...

    > easy to lob false accusations and cherry pick facts

    You'd think HRW and Amnesty are thorough, but if you prefer a Israeli shedding light instead, then: https://x.com/ireallyhateyou/status/1746692047354958151

  • dralley  3 days ago

    >Russia accuses Ukraine of oppression, genocide, and ethno-nationalist supremacy of Ukrainians against Russians in Ukraine happily pointing to the Azov brigade and all kinds of fringe rhetoric.

    The most ironic thing about this is that Azov are almost entirely the "ethnically Russian, Russian-speaking-minority" that Russia claims to be acting in the interest of.

HDThoreaun  3 days ago

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  • pastage  3 days ago

    What makes me feel uncomfortable is the whole and eye for an eye argumentation in these debates. Your comment on the actions of the US makes me see that clearer. I do not think you can compare war crimes that will end in what-aboutism, and I do believe Israel, the US and Russia has commited horrible war crimes against civilians.

    I do not get is how any sane human being can justify killing or abusing civilians at such large scales. A war crime is always a crime even though you might think it is justified.

    • HDThoreaun  3 days ago

      There is no eye for an eye argument. The Gaza war is not about revenge, it’s about security. Israel didn’t poke out the Palestinians “eyes” because the Palestinians poked their eye first. They did it because they wanted the stop the Palestinians from poking their eye out before it happens again.

      As far as justifying killing and abuse, the world is a complicated place. Personally I think killing is justified in self defense but you may not agree. Israel is certainly a bad actor but Hamas is far worse and unfortunately you do have to choose sides here.

      What I think is clear is that Israel is not obligated to go easy on Hamas just because Hamas is economically and militarily weak. Being oppressed doesn’t automatically make you right.

      12 replies →

  • hmcq6  3 days ago

    Race is a social construct. It is not a component of ethnicity.

    > It’s religious nationalist.

    So ethonoationalist. Just like the Vatican. Pope Francis was from South America but that doesn't make the Vatican not an ethnostate.

    > The apartheid sucks but the Palestinians have repeatedly shown they can’t be trusted to remain peaceful, leaving Israel with no choice.

    That's race essentialism.

    Also, who killed Rabin to prevent the Oslo accords? Big hint, it wasn't the Palestinians.

    • HDThoreaun  3 days ago

      The Vatican isn’t an ethnostate. There are many Palestinian Israeli citizens, clearly it’s not the race but the culture that Israel has a problem with.

      Israel has many bad actors, few will deny that. But Hamas is much much worse and at the end of the day they can’t co-exist so you have to choose sides. Looking at the history of the last 100 years in the region it is clear to me that israel can not let the Palestinians into their country if they want any amount of security.

thomassmith65  3 days ago

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  • ignoramous  3 days ago

    > reasonable counterarguments to all those accusations. To cover them all would result in a massive wall of text ... intractable security problems ... extremism in the wider region ... justifications for Israel's existence ... 'never again'

    Goebbels also laid down "reasonable" arguments in "a wall of text" on intractable security problems, extremism among the diaspora, justifiable 'Reich must not fall again' rhetoric when it came to German Jews. He was indeed "just wrong". If 'never again' is our ethos, we mustn't be like Goebbels.

      The [Palestinians] are responsible for the war. The treatment they receive from us is hardly unjust. They have deserved it all.

  It is the job of the government to deal with them. No one has the right to act on his own, but each has the duty to support the state's measures against the [Palestinians], to defend them with others, and to avoid being misled by any [Palestinian] tricks.

  The security of the state requires that of us.

    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/joseph-goebbels-quot-th...

    > contrast Israel's behavior between Gazan vs Israeli arabs

    Settler Colonialism 101. Nothing dramatic about it at all, as many have who spilled ink on the topic have taken pains to point out, like here: https://archive.is/UAs9G

      Members of the same community were separated by chance into three different groups. All suffered occupation and oppression by Israeli governments. All had lands and property stolen, and all were denied collective national rights. But only those inside the Green Line were given citizenship (without anyone asking their opinion). East Jerusalem residents had permanent residency imposed on them (with a theoretical possibility of becoming citizens). And Palestinians in the territories got Dayan's “different relationship.”

  After 56 years, the results of this experiment are clear. It’s the citizenship, stupid! Arabs in Israel, despite the discrimination and for all their reservations, have by and large integrated into Israeli society. Every day, we entrust our lives to Arab doctors, nurses, bus drivers, lawyers and mechanics.

    • thomassmith65  3 days ago

      Re: Nazi propaganda and security

      Without any regard for the security issues, the conflict would be simple. That's not very helpful. Deserved or not, suicide bombings and missiles are real security issues.

      Re: granting all Palestinians Citizenship

      If the argument is that this would be a good idea, of course it would, as long as it were under a reasonably pluralistic system. It would be fantastic to see a single Israeli/Palestinian state with a slight arab majority, but everyone with their voice represented, all living in peace and harmony.

      5 replies →